Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Douglas Richardson wrote: 
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:

Douglas Richardson wrote:


Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075.  She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177.  He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.



Here we have it - _your_ chronology and she is in her late 30s when she
has her oldest son.  How often is that the case for a woman at this period?


A point of clarification.  You've stated above that Gospatric Fitz Orm
was Gravelda's "oldest son." (your words).   As you are well aware, due
to the high infant mortality in the medieval time period, there is
often a big difference in age between "oldest son" and "oldest
surviving son."   In this case, due to the lack of records, I think it
is best that we refer to Gospatric as Gravelda's oldest known surviving
son.

Oh, right - she just had 15 years worth of infant mortality leading up to the son so important he was named after his maternal grandfather. You want it both ways - you want Gospatric to be named for his important grandfather, but you also want him to come after a string of sons who never left record.

And now you just adjust the chronology to better match the theory, and surprise, the theory is consistent with the chronology.

Frankly, given the obvious lacuna in the records from 1075 to 1150, I
think we're doing very good to have the facts we do.   I'm sure you
agree.

And one of these facts is that Gospatric calls Ebrea "my mother". In any other context you would be parading this about as absolute evidence, but here, being invested in the alternative, you ad hoc it out of consideration. This is not just a fact, it is THE paramount piece of evidence - it trumps chronology and it trumps inheritance. You dismiss it out of hand as meaning mother-in-law without providing any examples from this period and region and in similar context that show "my mother" was in use as such - where "X my wife and Y my mother" actually means "X my wife and Y _my wife's_ mother". You make a huge deal about the use of ejus in an ambiguous context in one charter, but are perfectly willing to ignore that "Ebrea mater ejus" would have expressed your meaning here, but it wasn't used - _my_ mother was. All of these chronological dances based on when people four generations later are supposed to have been born are just fancy ways of ducking the main issue. That is, why "my mother" should be taken as meaning anything other than "my mother"? If he really called her his mother, then all arguments based on chronological likelihoods become pointless (unless they prove the stated relationship impossible, which they do not).

taf
.

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