Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Dear MichaelAnne ~

As I showed in earlier posts, Ebrea de Trevers' husband, Ranulph
Engaine, was evidently living after 1122, when they gave propety in
Henrickby (or Herriby) to Carlisle Priory. This dating makes it
virtually impossible for Ebrea de Trevers to be Gospatric Fitz Orm's
mother, as I will demonstrate below.

We know that Gospatric Fitz Orm issued a charter to St. Bees Priory
sometime in the period, 1138-1157, which charter was witnessed by his
first cousin, Alan Fitz Waltheof, his brothers-in-law, William and
Gilbert Engaine, his wife Elgiva, his mother-in-law, Ebrea [de
Trevers], and his three sons, Thomas, Adam, and Robert [Reference:
Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 60-61].

We can date the charter as being 1138-1157, as Alan Fitz Waltheof's
father, Waltheof Fitz Gospatrick, died in 1138, and William Engaine
died in 1157 [References: Sanders, English Baronies (1960): 23;
Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants (2002): 246]. If we assume that
Gospatric Fitz Orm's sons were of sufficient age to witness the
charter, it means that Thomas his eldest son was approximately age 20
in or before 1157, or before in or before 1137. Yet, incredibly, you
have Thomas being born a full generation later at ca. 1155-1160.
Likewise, we know from other records, that Thomas Fitz Gospatric'
son-in-law, William de Furness (or Fleming), was of age before 1164.
Again, I find it incredible that you have Thomas Fitz Gospatric being
the same approximate age as his son-in-law.

Elsewhere, I've determined that Thomas, son of Gospatrick Fitz Orm, had
a grandson, Michael de Furness, who was aged 6 in 1204, or born about
1198. Michael de Furness would, of course, be a great-grandson of
Gospatrick Fitz Orm. Using the 85 year rule of thumb for three
generations which I have employed in earlier posts, if we subtract 85
years from 1198, we obtain an estimated birthdate for Gospatric Fitz
Orm of circa 1113. We get a similar corresponding result in
chronology for his son, Thomas Fitz Gospatric, when we subtract 85
years from the approximate birthdate of his great-grandson, William de
Furness, who I believe was born c. 1215-1219. 85 years substracted
from c. 1215-1219 indicates an estimated birthdate of 1130/1134 for
Thomas Fitz Gospatric.

Using these records, the following chronology can be constructed which
harmonizes well with the facts as we have them:

1. Gravelda (or Gurwelda, Gimilda) of Dunbar, born before 1075, minor
and unmarried at her father's death in 1075. She married Orm Fitz
Ketel, who I believe was an adult in 1094.

2. Gospatric Fitz Orm, born say 1110, died c. 1177. He married Egliva
Engaine, daughter of Ranulph Engaine (living after 1122) and Ibrea (or
Ybri) de Trevers.

3. Thomas Fitz Gospatric, born say 1130/5, died 1201, married Grace
_____.

4. Aline Fitz Thomas, born say 1160/5, living 1219, married William de
Furness (or Fleming), he was of age before 1164.

5. Michael de Furness, born about 1198 (aged 6 in 1204), died 1230/34.

6. William de Furness, born c. 1215/1219 (allegedly aged 14 at his
father's death), living 1262.

I'm sure that more evidence can be provided to show that Gospatric Fitz
Orm was born in or before 1110. For now, I think the above is
sufficient to prove that the theory you have presented in your recent
Foundations article regarding Gospatric Fitz Orm's maternity is
untenable for three reasons: (1) Passage of lands; (2) Onomastic
evidence; and most basic of all, (3) chronology. Also, your
interpretation of the Latin phrase "matre ejus" can not be sustained.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net

ClaudiusI0@xxxxxxx wrote:
> In a message dated 11/28/2005 2:06:41 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> royalancestry@xxxxxxx writes:
>
> Gospatric Fitz Orm, who I estimate was born say 1110.
>
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> The chronology of this family can be documented.
>
>
> Gravilda was born before 1075 as her father Gospatric earl of Northumberland
> was dead in 1074. Symeon of Durham [Symeonis Dunelmensis Opera et
> Collectanea, Vol. II, Surtees Society Publication, Andrews & Co., Durham, 1868, pp.
> 199] records that just before his death Gospatric was visited by two monks from
> Jarrow abbey Aldwin and Turgot. Gospatric confessed his sins and died and was
> buried in the porch of the church at Melrose. Symeon dates this to 1074 in
> Vol. I, pp. 111 where he states that this trip took place from Jarrow to
> Melrose. The confession was taken at Ubbanford [Norham]. So the latest birth date
> for Gravilda was 1075.
>
> Gospatric son of Orm first comes into documented records in 1150 as he
> witnessed a charter of Henry [ son of David I, king of Scotland] with Bishop
> Athewold to Holm Cultram Abbey. Gospatric would have been at least 14 when he
> witnessed this charter. Gospatric died ca.1179. In 1174 he granted a charter to
> Holm Cultram with the consent of his son Thomas [his heir] and another son
> Alan which was witnessed at Camberton before Robert de Vallibus who was justice
> itinerant in 1174. These dates seem to make it much more likely that
> Gospatric was born ca. 1120-1125 which would eliminate Gravilda from being his
> mother.
>
> The next documented record of Thomas son of Gospatric occurs in 1185 when he
> made an agreement with Adam de Kerkebi (Pipe rolls 31 Henry I). He died
> between November 13, 1200 (Charter Rolls, 2 John, m. 27 dorso; Pipe Roll, 2 John)
> and 1201(Rot. de Oblations, pp. 157, 179, 194; Westmoreland Pipe Roll, 3
> John).
>
> Based on the above data Thomas son of Gospatric would appear to have been
> born ca. 1155-1160 making the logical birth date ca. 1120-1125 for Gospatric.
>
> In the eleventh century for a woman to be married and give birth to her
> first child at 45-50 is very improbable.
>
> MIchaelAnne

.

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