Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

Douglas Richardson wrote:
> I'm sure that more evidence can be provided to show that Gospatric Fitz
> Orm was born in or before 1110. For now, I think the above is
> sufficient to prove that the theory you have presented in your recent
> Foundations article regarding Gospatric Fitz Orm's maternity is
> untenable for three reasons: (1) Passage of lands; (2) Onomastic
> evidence; and most basic of all, (3) chronology. Also, your
> interpretation of the Latin phrase "matre ejus" can not be sustained.


I think it is important to be clear about what MichaelAnne Guido claims to
have proved, and what she doesn't.

What she does is to produce two charters in which Gospatric's mother
("mater") is named as Ebrea. I cannot understand how you can argue that it
is Elgiva's mother who is being described, when the second charter of
Gospatric describes her as "Ebrea matre mea". That is absolutely
unambiguous, isn't it? If you are actually arguing that "mater" in this
context is likely to mean "mother in law", I agree with Nat Taylor that it
would be helpful if you could produce a comparable example.

The question of Ebrea's parentage is a separate one, and MichaelAnne herself
describes her suggestion as to Ebrea's identity as "speculation". Perhaps it
can be demonstrated that this suggestion is impossible on chronological
grounds, but is it really safe to assume that Ranulph's grant to Carlisle
could not have taken place until 1122? VCH Cumberland vol. 2 says this about
the foundation of Carlisle Priory:

"We naturally look to Carlisle for the earliest evidence of ecclesiastical
life and movement in the new province which had been added to the English
kingdom in 1092. It has been pointed out that very early in his reign, most
probably in 1102, Henry I. granted a site within the city for the purpose of
founding a religious establishment. For various reasons already stated,
little else seems to have been done till after the political changes of
1120-2, when Ranulf Meschin, the civil ruler, left the district and the king
took it into his own hand. From this date onward a vigorous policy was
carried on for its ecclesiastical development. How much progress had been
made with the building of the church or the religious organization of the
city during Ranulf's consulate we cannot tell. ..."

In any case, whatever the truth about Ebrea's parentage, there is clearly no
chronological argument against Gospatric's mother bearing this name. Indeed,
even your own chronology doesn't seem particularly favourable for
Gravelda/Gunnilda to be Gospatric's mother. You estimate Gospatric's birth
at about 1113. Even if she were born posthumously, this would have her
giving birth to Gospatric at the age of 38. More likely she would be at
least 40. That is extremely late if Gospatric is supposed to be her eldest
son.

As I said before, I agree the passage of land would Gospatric was
Gravelda's/Gunnilda's son in the absence of evidence to the contrary (though
I think the chronology would make us think twice). I don't see how it can
prevail against the direct evidence of the charters.

And as Todd Farmerie pointed out, the onomastic evidence might have some
force if Gospatric was a very rare name in that time and place. But it
wasn't, was it?

Chris Phillips








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