Re: Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar

30. Douglas Richardson Nov 27, 10:02 pm wrote:

<<"Elgiva uxore ipsius Gospatricii, Ebrea matre ejus." [Reference:
James
Wilson, Register of the Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915):
60-61].

Ms. Guido translated this to read "his wife Elgiva and his mother
Ebrea." (Ms. Guido's words). However, as we have learned from a
recent discussion regarding a lawsuit involving the Lacy and Galloway
families, if Gospatric's mother had really been Ebrea, the list of
witnesses should have read as following:

Elgiva uxore ipsius Gospatricii, Ebrea matre suus."

Instead we find the word "ejus" (not "suus") employed in the original,
which means that Ebrea was Elgiva's mother, not Gospatric's. The word
"ejus" (her) in the original text refers back to Elgiva, not Gospatric.

If Ebrea was Gospatric's mother, the word "suus" (his) would have been

used to refer back to Gospatric, he being the author of the charter in
question.

In the second charter, we find that Gospatric Fitz Orm refers to Ebrea
as "matre mea" (my mother) [Reference: James Wilson, Register of the
Priory of St. Bees (Surtees Soc. 126) (1915): 63-64]. However, we know

from other instances in medieval records that a man may refer to either

his mother, step-mother, or mother-in-law as "my mother." So the term
"my mother" in medieval records is vague in and of its own nature.>>

DOUGLAS HAS IT EXACTLY CORRECT.

In my message 42. FDP...@xxxxxxx Nov 26, 4:50 pm; Subject: Re:
Gilbert fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further.. I presented a Theory of
the descendants of Eldred. In this construct, I had Gospatric FitzOrm
as follows:

Descendants of Eldred of Northumbria

1. Eldred/Etheldred of Northumbria (approx b. 1018) alive 1086 d. bef
1093 [Keats-Rohan p. 1121] m. (1) Aldgytha/ Adgitha [ref 1] Eldred aka
Etret aka Ughtret and others
2. Ketel FitzEldred (approx b. 1047) alive 1020-1030 [ref 2] m.
Christiana [ref 2]
3. Orme FitzKetel (approx b. 1076) d. ca 1135/40 [Ref 3] m. Gunhilda
FitzGospatric est b. 1072; dau Gospatric I the Earl d. 1074/5
[Keats-Rohan, p.221]
4. Gospatric FitzOrme (b. 1100-1110 d. 1179 [literature] m. Egilina de
Engaine [traded for Workington with cousin William de Lancaster I]

In my message 56. FDP...@xxxxxxx Nov 27, 6:36 pm Subject: Re: Gilbert
fitzReinfrid son and heir..Further.. I offered a chronology scenario
for this family.
I have not read Ms Guido?s paper in _Foundations_ but I gather from
this thread my chronology and my line of descent differs from hers.

In her message 37. Claudiu...@xxxxxxx Nov 28, 12:12 pm Subject: Re:
Gospatric Fitz Orm's mother, Gravelda of Dunbar she writes:

<<Gravilda was born before 1075 as her father Gospatric earl of
Northumberland
was dead in 1074. Symeon of Durham [Symeonis Dunelmensis Opera et
Collectanea, Vol. II, Surtees Society Publication, Andrews & Co.,
Durham, 1868, pp.
199] records that just before his death Gospatric was visited by two
monks from
Jarrow abbey Aldwin and Turgot. Gospatric confessed his sins and died
and was
buried in the porch of the church at Melrose. Symeon dates this to
1074 in
Vol. I, pp. 111 where he states that this trip took place from Jarrow
to
Melrose. The confession was taken at Ubbanford [Norham]. So the
latest birth date
for Gravilda was 1075.>>

This exactly what I documented in my second message. However, she leaps
45 years in accounting for Gospatric?s birth. I fear she has jumped a
generation to make a fit with her Eberia as mother of Gospatric theory.

<<These dates seem to make it much more likely that Gospatric was born
ca. 1120-1125 which would eliminate Gravilda from being his mother.>>

<<Based on the above data Thomas son of Gospatric would appear to have
been
born ca. 1155-1160 making the logical birth date ca. 1120-1125 for
Gospatric.>>

In my construct Gospatric was born nominally ca1100, and his son Thomas
ca 1129 followed by Patric de Culwen ca 1158.

In my research I have Gospatric FitzOrme married to Egilina de Engaine
daughter of Ibria D'Estrivers and Ranulf D'Engaine. I present no
documentation other than Internet findings which place Egilina?s birth
between 1100-1110 which I find consistent with my Gospatric FitzOrme
data.

I find all the messages in this thread provide plenty of
?documentation? but demonstrate a lot of confusion with individuals
playing ?my record is better than your record.? One needs to make a
serious look at chronology which I have humbly attempted to do.

I go back to Douglas? message where he has it correct. Elgiva/Egilina,
I wish those scribes would write correctly, is clearly Gospatric?s wife
and Ebrea/Ibria is clearly his mother-in-law. Now I will concede that
the widow Ibria in her old age may have married Gospatric as his second
wife, but had no issue, and it is not unreasonable that a mother and
daughter would have a close relationship with a father and son.

I offer some additional ?documentation? for Gospatric FitzOrme ;



(1) FILIUS ORM, GOSPATRIC

?Son of Orm, son of Chetel son of Eldred, of Workington, Cumberland.
Pipe Roll 4 Henry II, 120-cl; Pipe Roll 9 Henry II, 10-cl; Pipe Roll 10
Henry II, 2-cl; Pipe Roll 11 Henry II, 54-cl; Pipe Roll 12 Henry II,
88-cl;? Source: DOMESDAY DESCENDANTS; by K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, page #
not copied

(2) ?1157 ?Gospatric son of Orm is with the king's court at Woodstock.
Coucher of Furness, pait i, 344.? Source: Farrer, ?Records of Kendale?,
Vol II, page 298

(3) ?1175 ?Gospatric son of Orm renders account of 20 marks to the
Crown for a default. Pipe Roll, 21 Henry n, p. 178.? Source: Farrer,
?Records of Kendale?, Vol II, p 298

(4) ?1176 ?Gospatric son of Orm accounts for an a mercement of 500
marks for the surrender of the king's castle of Appeibi to the king of
Scots. Pipe Roll, 22 Henry n, 119.? Source: Farrer, ?Records of
Kendale?, Vol II, p 298

Respectfully,

Dix Preston

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