Re: Juliana of Vescy or of Alnwick - better birth range

Matthew,

I too have seen stated a marriage of John Cockayne and Cecilia de
Vernon, but not yet come across any contemporary evidence. The
chronology for a daughter of William de Vernon does seem to fit though.

Luke

"Anonymous User" wrote:
>Hi Luke,
>
>that's all fascinating about Maud/Matilda, I had no inkling even of her
>existence. While on the subject of Vernon daughters, do you know
>anything about the Cecilia Vernon who married Sir John Cockayne
>(d.1372)? She also married an Ireton. I've seen her placed as a
>daughter of William Vernon of Haddon (son of Richard and Maud Camvill)
>but don't know if that is based on any more than guesswork- I don't
>even know the basis for her identification as a Vernon in the first
>place, but have seen it stated in a reputable source.
>
>I don't think we did miss a generation though- Will's OP did say that
>Isabel was daughter of Richard who was in turn son of Richard and
>Juliana (ie, Isabel de Harcla); it's just that neither of us mentioned
>the younger Richard's wives!
>
>Matthew
>
>Luke Potter wrote:
>> Hi Will and Matthew,
>>
>> I think we have jumped a generation here.
>>
>> Isabel daughter of Michael de Harcla was wife of Richard de Vernon
>> senior who was also known as Richard le Franceys. Richard was dead by
>> 1329 when Isabel sued William de Vernon for a third part of two parts
>> of two messuages and a moiety of Netherhaddon [_Staffordshire
>> Historical Collections_, Vol.9, p.9]. Isabel was still living by 1342
>> when there is an interesting entry in the Register of John Kirkby,
>> Bishop of Carlisle:
>>
>> "It is good to give testimony in the business of the needy. At the
>> time of writing, the noble matron Isabel de Vernon was sane and in
>> perfect physical health, as could clearly be seen in her manor of
>> Mauld's Meaburn, where she lived. These letters are written in case
>> anyone might make an assertion to the contrary." [R.Storey (ed.),
_The
>> Register of John Kirkby, Bishop of Carlisle, 1332-1352,_ (Canterbury
>> and York Society, 1993), p.41]
>>
>> The eldest son of Richard and Isabel was another Richard. His first
>> wife was Eleanor de Frenes, but then by Feb 1312/3 he was re-married
>> to Matilda de Camville daughter of William Camville. I can identify
>> three children, William, Isabel and Matilda, before Richard died in
>> Feb 1322/3.
>>
>> Upon the subsequent death of his grandfather, William inherited his
>> grandfather's estates (or at least those which were not held in dower
>> by his mother and grandmother). His wife was a Joan whose surname I
>> have not yet identified. [_Staffordshire Historical Collections_,
>> Vol.12, p.58]
>>
>> His sister Isabel married Richard de Stafford as stated before in
this
>> thread, but she was therefore the daughter of Richard de Vernon and
>> Matilda de Camville, and grandaughter of Richard de Vernon and Isabel
>> de Harcla. Again no connection to the Vescy family.
>>
>> Their other sister, Matilda, received a grant from her mother in 12
>> Edward III (1338/9) of £20 yearly from the rents of her tenement in
>> Haunton, Staffordshire [BL, Harl MS. 2074, f.34]. I suspect that this
>> Matilda may then have married William son of Hugh de Venables of
>> Cheshire.
>>
>> BL Harl MS 2077, f.37 gives summaries of the following two charters:
>>
>> 1/ Covenant of marriage that William son of Sir Hugh Venables should
>> marry Maude the daughter of Maude Vernon and of Richard Vernon. Dated
>> 16 Edward III
>>
>> 2/ Maud who was wife of Richard de Vernon grants to Maude her
daughter
>> wife of William de Venables and her heirs an annual rent of £20
silver
>> from the lands and tenements which were of John de Cave in Hamtton.
>> Dated 23 Edward III.
>>
>> I suspect that Hamtton was actually a misreading by the original
>> copier of Haunton. Haunton was part of the Camville land held by
>> Matilda de Vernon (nee Camville) in the 1327 Lay Subsidy, and so
looks
>> like this Vernon/Venables marriage was actually of the Haddon Vernons
>> rather than the Shipbrook Vernons.
>>
>> Luke
>



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