Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord

Douglas Richardson royalancestry@xxxxxxx wrote:

Reviewing the Vernon ancestry, I find that Edmund Stafford's
great-grandfather, Richard de Vernon, married Eleanor de Fiennes,
daughter of Giles de Fiennes, in or about 1290.  This is indicated by
the following information in VCH Buckingham, 4 (1927): 90, citation
kindly provided to me by Matthew Connelly:

"In 1290 he [Richard de Vernon] enfeoffed his son Richard and Eleanor
daughter of Giles Fenes of Pitchcott Manor (25), and in 1292 it was
granted to her father in custody during their minority (26). Richard
Vernon, the father, regained seisin of this manor, however, before 1302
(27) "

References: Footnote 25: Abbrev. Plac. (Rec. Com.), 223; Footnote 26:
Cal. Pat. 1281-92, p.470; Footnote 27: Feud. Aids, i, 93; see also De
Banco R. 178, m. 218; 204, m. 103d.; Feud. Aids, i, 113.  END OF QUOTE.

Vernon family genealogists have commonly assumed that the marriage of
Richard de Vernon and Eleanor de Fiennes was childless.  However, there
doesn't appear to be any evidence to suggest this.

This is hardly a fair assessment. Those researching the family have not "assumed" any such thing. They have _concluded_ it, an entirely different animal. Likewise, since when is the priority put on evidence showing that there are no children, when there is no evidence that such a child existed.

Richard le Fraunceys de Vernon, the father, was born ca. 1262 (15 in 1278), and Richard the son hence was hardly more than 10 or 12 at the time of this engagement. As you well know, engagements performed at this age cannot be assumed to have resulted in a fertile marriage a decade on. Is there any suggestion that it came to naught? The manor in question reverted from Giles de Fenes back to the father Richard de Vernon, well before the date of Giles's death. The next solid date is of William, son of Richard (whose wife was Maud de Camville), and grandson and heir of another Richard, who was born ca. 1313 (10 in 1323).

Your solution, making William the grandson of Richard and Eleanor, would make him great grandson of Richard, b. 1262, and hence 3 generations in 51 years, or 17 years per generation. While possible, this is terribly tight for three successive generations. The alternative would be to conclude that the Richard who married Eleanor de Fenes _was_ the Richard who married Maud de Camville. This would give you just two generations in 51 years, or 25 1/2 years per generation, which seems more comfortable. I note that when William succeeded his grandfather in 1330, his mother Maud and grandmother Isabella claimed dower. This would appear to add weight to the latter reconstruction, as the eldest Richard (great-grandfather by your reconstruction, grandfather by the alternative) married Isabella de Hartcla, unless you would like to introduce another undocumented Isabella, married to the younger Richard after Eleanor.

Now the shoe is on your foot. Given this tight chronology, given that Pitchcott referted to the father, what evidence is there that Richard de Vernon and Eleanor de Fenes had any children?


taf
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