Re: Catholic in England 1870's

On May 3, 12:00 am, Renia <re...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The_Chieft...@xxxxxxx wrote:
On May 2, 10:31 pm, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:
<The_Chieft...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:44bb430f-75c7-

On May 2, 9:34 pm, "FarmI" <ask@itshall be given> wrote:

<The_Chieft...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1f28d06c-4904-
On May 2, 5:25 pm, Renia <re...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
That Catholicism was recognised in England in the 1870s and wasn't > as
much of a theological battlefield as it had been in previous
centuries.
Show me any - any - official recognition of a Catholic "Church" in
England in the 1870s.
You are now attempting to shift the goal posts.
Hardly - this started out when I pointed out that in 1870s England
there were no Catholic churches, only chapels.
Yes indeed.  That is how exactly how it started and there is no dispute that
you made such a claim.

That was a statement of the official position of the day, as reflected in
 > such things as marriage registrations, OS maps, etc.
Your inclusion of the word "official" is where you are trying to shift the
goal posts.

And despite your claim, there were indeed Roman Catholic Churches in England
prior to the 1870s.

As I stated, the official and historical position is that Catholic
places of worship were "chapels" not "churches", a position supported
by the Catholic Encyclopedia.  I don't believe I can make that any
clearer for you.
Regards,
 The Chief

St Patrick's Church is a very large Roman Catholic Parish Church in Soho
Square, London that features extensive catacombs (that spread deep under
the Square and further afield). St. Pats (as it is informally known) was
consecrated on September 29, 1792, the first Catholic church built in
England after the English Reformation. (Wiki)

All places of worship in England belonging to Catholics, like those of
other religious bodies outside the Established Church, were formerly
termed "chapels."http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03574b.htm

Formerly? Formerly when?

The Catholic Encyclopedia does not have an article for the Catholic
Emancipation Act, but Wiki does:

Catholic Emancipation or Catholic Relief, was a process in Great Britain
and Ireland in the late 18th century and early 19th century which
involved reducing and removing many of the restrictions on Roman
Catholics which had been introduced by the Act of Uniformity, the Test
Acts and the Penal Laws. Requirements to abjure the temporal and
spiritual authority of the Pope and transubstantiation placed major
burdens on Roman Catholics.

 From the death of James Francis Edward Stuart in January 1766, the
Papacy recognised the Hanoverian dynasty as lawful rulers of England,
Scotland and Ireland, after a gap of 70 years, and thereafter the Penal
Laws started to be dismantled.

And from the Catholic Encyclopedia:http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11611c..htm

Even this lengthy enumeration is not absolutely exhaustive, and the Acts
here cited contain many minor enactments of a vexatious nature. The task
of repeal was a long, slow, gradual, and complicated one, the chief
measures of relief being three: The First Catholic Relief Act of 1778,
which enabled Catholics to inherit and purchase land and repealed the
Act of William III, rewarding the conviction of priests; the second
Relief Act of 1791, which relieved all Catholics who took the oath
therein prescribed from the operation of the Penal Code (see Ward, 'Dawn
of the Catholic Revival" viii, xiv-xvi); and the Catholic Emancipation
Act of 1829. The only disqualifications against Catholics which appear
to be still in force are those which prohibit the sovereign from being
or marrying a Catholic, or any Catholic subject from holding the offices
of Lord Chancellor or Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.

Ah reliance on Wikipedia. May I suggest that you actually read the
text of the Emancipation Act of 1829, which is available at multiple
locations, including http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/The_Emancipation_Bill ?
If you do, you will be disabused of some of the notions you quote
above.

The 1829 Emancipation Act was concerned with removing (most of) the
civil incapacities previously imposed on Catholics. What the 1829 Act
did not do was give recognition to the Catholic Church as a legal
entity. In fact the contrary is the case, as the Ecclesiastical Titles
Act of 1871, (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/RevisedStatutes/Acts/ukpga/1871/
cukpga_18710053_en_1 ) provides:
"And whereas no ecclesiastical title of honour or dignity derived from
any see, province, diocese, or deanery recognised by law, or from any
city, town, place, or territory within this realm, can be validly
created, nor can any such see, province, diocese, or deanery be
validly created, nor can any pre-eminence or coercive power be
conferred otherwise than under the authority and by the favour of Her
Majesty, her heirs and successors, and according to the laws of this
realm"
This Act is still in force, and as a result Catholic dioceses in
England cannot form corporations sole, or obtain Grants of Arms, etc.
More particularly, the law was explicit that Catholic places of
worship were **chapels**, see e.g. provisions for registration of
Catholic chapels in 1 Vict. c.22. Consequently we find in sources such
as the "Dictionary of Architecture and Building" (1901) for "Church":
"A house of Christian worship. In England this term is restricted to
edifices of the Establishment, those of other denominations being
called chapels."

Regards,
The Chief
.

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