Re: McLaughlin's Weird, Neurotic Fixation On Foxes & Fox Hunters

"Ye Old One" <usenet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
"Farm1" <please@askifyouwannaknow> wrote
"Ye Old One" <usenet@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 22:11:24 GMT, "Alan Holmes"

I happen to knwo quite a bit about foxes.

But do you claim to know a lot about foxes in the wild or do you
claim
to know a lot about foxes and thier kill patterns of domestic fowl?

One of the things we needed to know, when tryig to get theso-called
sport banned, was every trick the pro-hunting mob would throw up in
a
debate. This meant really studying the animal, its habitats and its
interreaction with man.

So you studied them in a country where they are indigenous but which
is highly urbanised and heavily populated, where they are sometimes
hunted by hosre and hound and where some people believe that feeding
them is a good thing and where there are large numbers in urban
environments and proably lesser numbers in the country because of the
predations of both farmers and hunters. And presumably you should
also have studied the incidence of attacks on domestic poultry, sheep
and other farm animals.

And have you ever owned poultry and experienced a fox attack?

Yes. No. Though I have visited a site where it was claimed chickens
had been attacked by a fox.

A site? A single site? And you that as knowledge and a study? I've
had multiple fox attacks. They would be a study and easily provable
that they were a fox attacks.

As it was there was no evidence of a fox
and indeed no evidence of a fox being in the area at that time.

Well of course there was no evidence! You went to one site and call
that a study! You need a reality check if you are going to claim that
one site inspection forms a "study".

On multiple occasions I could have showed you a trail of feathers and
guts and dripping bits of bird that lead directly from a fox made hole
in the external pen to fox dens over a kilometre away . And I could
also have taken you back weeks later and showed you a dead and silent
den as the poison that I used in the remaining bodies took effect as
the bodies were collected and carried back to the dens over the next
few nights to feed the cubs

Based on a lifetime as the child of free range poultry farmers and
having now kept domestic fowl myself for 30+ years, I'd have to say
that I agree with Alan Holmes and not with you. In fact I find
that
your claims of knowledge of foxes makes no sense in relation to how
foxes act when they attack domestic poultry.

I have not said that foxes NEVER attack domestic poultry, but it is
nowhere near as common as the blood sport mob will have people
believe
nor are foxes the only animals that kill domestic poulty.

But I don't live in a country where hunting against foxes is
practiced. I live in a sparsely populated country where foxes are an
introduced feral animal. I have at least 5 fox dens on our farm and
the number of young foxes that also end up as road kill indicates that
they an ever increasing population over the whole of the district.

I also know that foxes aren't the only things that kill poultry as I
suffered dog attacks when I lived in the city however, my neighbours
live a long distance from me, keep their dogs indoors overnight and I
know their dogs are not responsible for the poultry attacks I have had
here or when I lived in a small village.

I have Jack Russells and I can tell by the way they react when the
external fence of the pen is breached that I have had a fox. The JRs
head off on the scent and go straight to the fox dens and I can hear
them dimly barking as they go underground. Great workers are JRs.

foxes do damage and kill just for the sake of it,

There are a few that do, just as there are a number of dogs that
do.
It is, however, not part of the normal behaviour of a fox.

It's time for you to state your credentials as a poultry owner who
has
experienced fox attacks because currently your claims on fox
knowledge
are not credible.

Yep, a comman lie from the fox hunting brigade. Along with "you
don't
live in the country", "you have never been hunting" and a few more.

A common form of defensive insult from those who claim to have
knowledge but reveal when finally pushed that they don't have the
knowledge they have claimed.

I've never been hunting, but can ride. I do live in the country, have
multiple foxes on my farm and have suffered multiple fox attacks on my
poultry as did my parents.

I've clearly got more knowledge of fox attacks on poultry than your
one abortive effort to visit "a" site very evidently indicates.

It is possible to have spent a great deal of time studying foxes
(and
other wildlife) and to understand their habits without needing to
have
ever owned chickens.

It may be possible for someone to achieve this but that description
does not apply to you. You obviously are not even familiar with the
term "surplus killing" which is used in studies of foxes and their
action when they attack poultry. If you had bothered to do this
claimed study of foxes then you would know this term and its
significance when discussing foxes and poultry attacks.

Where do you think the expression "like a fox in a
hen house" came from?

You are misusing the saying. The saying "like a fox in a hen house"
referes to beign spoilt for choice - "like a child in a sweet shop".

Yes, being spoilt for choice in what to kill!

They kill the lot.

A few do. But then so do several animals including dogs.

As I have experienced both and thus have the experieince which you do
not then I will disagree strongly with you on that point. Dogs have
never done as much damage as foxes have. They get too excitable and
make too much noise. Foxes kill silently and if the hens don't make
enough noise then the lot is gone.

I have only ever had one survivor from a fox attack and that was very
big, fit rooster. He was left with severe tissue damage and his head
dragged on the ground. He couldn't lift his head at all so could not
drink or he would have drowned (if you know anything of chook anatomy
that will be obvious). I gave him a shot of Cortisone and gave him
drink and gruel through a whacking great horse syringe for weeks and
he finally came good just as I was decided to make soup of him.

They will take a few bodies
away at the time of the kill and will come back over the next few
days
and remove all they have killed and store the bodies near their
dens.
That is how foxes operate. They kill and store the food.

That is a habit of foxes in a normal wild habitat. Since man's
destruction for their normal habitat the fox population has become
concentrated in smaller areas and storing food for other foxes to
kill
is hardly productive for them.

Foxes in my country ARE living in the wild. There are no dozy people
who think they are cute and so feed them. They have no predators
except the dingo and that is now as rare as rocking horse manure
(there are none in my district). Foxes are totally wild and
unfettered in a huge and sparsely populated land with enormous
reserves of food in the form of rabbits and small native marsupials
that they can hunt with impunity. They are not considered cute but
they are as urbanised in this country as they are in the UK and I have
even seen one on the lawns of our National Parliament House. They are
also in huge numbers in the true countryside. For a nation wide
distribution which includes every type of habitat including tropical,
desert, city, grazing, agricultural and snowcovered and that is larger
than the whole of Europe see:
http://www.deh.gov.au/biodiversity/invasive/publications/fox/index.htm
l

Killing everything when a fox gets into a poultry pen IS normal
behaviour for a fox. There are multiple web sites on it: Do a
google.

There are mulitiple websites that tell you dinosaurs walked with man
in the garden of Eden. They don't make it true.

For someone who claims to have made a "study" you are both lazy and
sloppy in defending your claims to knowledge. I'd agree that not all
sites are credible but since you are too lazy to even seek out the
credible ones for yourself then I'll give you some:
http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/evidence/wessexwildlife.htm#p12

See 3.5 "Foxes and Agriculture". Not a bad site but they make the
assumption that foxes only attack free range poultry and do not break
into poultry runs. I have a 4 to 6 ft wire netting fence right around
the perimeter of my quarter acre day run for my poultry and the foxes
will worry at the bird netting wire fence till they create a hole.
Determined sods so I have to patrol the perimeter daily. Each time I
repair and reinforce the fence they just move to a new spot and start
worrying at the fence all over again. They haven't yet managed to
break into the night yard.

http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/cm47/4763/4763-05
..htm
This will explain "surplus killing". See 5.16

What is interesting is that there has been no increase in those
sorts
of attacks since hunting was banned. I find that very telling.

But even more telling is the report from Jill. Unlike you who report
only having inspected one reported fox kill, Jill sells equipment to
people who suffer fox attacks and can report directly on the feedback
from people who suffer attacks.


.

Relevant Pages

  • National Fox Welfare Frequently Asked Questions
    ... Please could you tell me when fox cubs are born, ... enough to see the fox cubs moving around mid April. ... Foxes do not make good ... Foxes being territorial animals will mark their territory ...
    (sci.agriculture.poultry)
  • Re: National Fox Welfare Frequently Asked Questions
    ... >Please could you tell me when fox cubs are born, ... >enough to see the fox cubs moving around mid April. ... Foxes do not make good ... Foxes being territorial animals will mark their territory ...
    (sci.agriculture.poultry)
  • Re: Re: Re: McLaughlins Weird, Neurotic Fixation On Foxes & Fox Hunters
    ... But do you claim to know a lot about foxes in the wild or do you claim ... And have you ever owned poultry and experienced a fox attack? ... It is, however, not part of the normal behaviour of a fox. ... They kill the lot. ...
    (soc.genealogy.britain)
  • Re: Hello Again
    ... If anyone has an open mind on the subject, track down the internet videos of what happens when a pack of hounds catch up with a fox. ... Could it be that people are finding hunting more attractive now that it doesn't involve the torture or wild animals. ... You've never witnessed the end of a hunt, ... New Labour has made it illegal to hunt foxes with more than one hound. ...
    (uk.people.support.depression)
  • Re: Yesterday we received the great news that the Hunting Bill will be reintroduced to the Commons n
    ... Personally I don't particularly believe in fox hunting, ... but never really thought about the foxes as round here there ... > 2) I don't allow the hunt on my land. ...
    (sci.agriculture.poultry)