Re: Thai poor can't pay rich prices to save their lives? tough sh*t, hints Minister Chaiya

Tchiowa <tchiowa2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:4fe87c42-bbc5-4130-9408-45accbe0a952@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

On Feb 23, 6:29 am, Nick <nicknom...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tchiowa <tchio...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
innews:196460ad-f88d-4b1d-8fee-fbc428
78ce9e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx:

I'm not trying to "ridicule" your personal experiences. I'm
pointing out that your *CLAIIM* of personal experience is
comletely contradictory to everything else you've ever posted.
You've repeatedly posted about your alleged connections to
high-society

~Liar. Professors are no way hi-so.

You're trying to claim that "professors" are the only elite you've
claimed to associate with? If so, then you're lying. Do I have to
dig up your posts to prove it.

I think that's a rather stupid remark, you might want to consider
that what one person might call "elite" another person wouldn't call
an elite at all, as I recall Maxwell hasn't ever called professors an
elite.

He has claimed to associate with professors, researchers, business
executives and other "elites".

The fact remains that you called professors "high-society" and Maxwell
doesn't.
In the words "Liar. Professors are no way hi-so", Maxwell doesn't deny that
he has "claimed" connections with professors (strictly speaken he doesn't
confirm either), what he denies is that that these people are "hi-so" which
IHMO he probably used in the same sense as high-society.
Apart from that the words "high-society" and "elite" don't necessarily
carry the same meaning. I don't think that in Thailand professors in
general for instance are part of "high-society" unless they would be
aristocrats.
They might be considered "Hi-So" if these professors were "loaded" and in
the spotlights for instance, but IMHO that would than be in the sense of
"new money" vs "old money" and aristocrats.
BTW, I haven't seen that he claims to associate with business executives,
what I have seen that he seems to know some people in acedemic fields. That
doesn't really surprise me for someone who, reading some of his posts,
obviously spent quite sometimes studying even as an adult.

Any time he is losing an argument he
suddenly comes up with a new high level executive or expert that he is
good buddies with that he claims defends him.

Oh, sure that must be so true, one as impartial as you can't be wrong about
that:)
Some might say every time you loose an "argument" you come up with some
family member, friend or farmer.


Plus, I didn't use the perjorative "hi-so". You did, in an attempt
to distort what I said.

As if YOUR use of the word high-society in those lines is used to
express something distinctly different from the "perjorative" hi-so
(especially considering what often seems to be your contempt for the
people Maxwell has written he "associates" with).
I think YOU are distorting your own words.

"Hi-So" is a specific Thai perjorative having nothing to do with high
society but rather with an attitude.

"Hi-So" can be perjorative but not necessarily, basically it depends on
the user of the word. For people who look-up to for instance socalled "new
rich" and admire their wealth and fame the term "Hi-So" doesn't carry much
of that connotation at all. They use the term and think of it as something
positive, in the sense of people that have "made" it.

I'd point out that it's fairly well understood in Thailand but you'd
accuse me of claiming you can't know Thailand if you rarely come here.
Again.

You're this emerged in Thai society that you're thinking like a Thai,
"reading" words like a Thai would do?:)
First, although this newsgroup is called sct, there are basically only
foreigners posting here so how likely is that someone from NJ, who doesn't
live in Thailand and who, as seems to be your opinion, basically doesn't
know (excuse le mot) jackshit about Thailand would use "Hi-So" strictly in
the sense of a specific Thai perjorative when the reading public seems to
be mostly non-Thai?
Second, I'm not claiming to know Thailand, at best I can claim to know a
little bit about Thailand, it's people and some topics.
I'm pretty sure that if I were to live in Thailand I wouldn't claim to know
Thailand either.
To me part of the fun of travelling is to not know and be surprised, amused
and even shocked at times.



The cashier, where my farang self paid not much over a mere
1000bt

You were telling us you had "personal experience" with the 30 baht
scheme. You cite now your "personal experience" with the 30 baht
scheme.

~With Public hospital dispensary, and particularly, with a young
Thai physician's information as to what was available there.

But that isn't what you said. You said you had personal experience
with the 30 baht scheme hospitals and drugs *including* cancer
drugs.

So, you've seen the "light" and realize that Maxwell didn't claim he
had ""personal experience" with the 30 baht scheme" but claimed he
had personal experience with the 30 baht scheme HOSPITALS" (capitals
added by me).

He claimed he had personal experience with the hospitals that proved
the point about the 30 baht scheme. He didn't have that experience. He
lied.

That's just your take on his words, what he basically wrote reacting to
Mort is "There's drugs and there's better drugs" and "hospitals serving
30bt patients" don't have the expensive stuff".
IMHO he claimed he has knowledge about what is available based on some
visits and


This is what Maxwell has written before:
"Guess what? The 'high-priced' stuff is NOT being dispensed, and not
only for cancer and heart drugs, but even for a number of
MUCH-cheaper drugs, such as a number of antibiotics needed for
resistant infections, and I know this first hand, from public
hospitals, one in Bang Bua Thong, and one in
Pakkret,..."http://groups.google.nl/group/soc.culture.thai/msg/a9e3
ff8fe5bbd960

Context, context, context. Claim was it wasn't being dispensed for 30
baht patients. Which implies several things, including the implication
that it *IS* being dispensed for regular patients.

Not at all as Maxwell wrote earlier: "You want the 'good stuff,' you pay up
from PRIVATE dispensaries and pharmacies."
That in no way implies the 'high-priced' stuff is being dispensed for
regular patients.
Anyway it's not really of interest to the discussion whether or not people
under the 30 Bath scheme get the 'high-priced' stuff what "regular
patients" get .

When you ignore the
context you can make anything sound any way you'd like.

Sure that's pretty clear I think you really gave a fine example of that
again.

snipped some ad-hominem..

Your words: "  The 'high-priced' stuff is NOT being dispensed, and
not

only for cancer and heart drugs, but even for a number of
MUCH-cheaper drugs, such as a number of antibiotics needed for
resistant infections, and I know this first hand, from public
hospitals,"

I think it's safe to say that Maxwell draws the conclusion that since
'high-priced' stuff such as a number of antibiotics needed for
resistant infections is NOT being dispensed, the "better" cancer and
heart drugs won't likely be dispensed at "30 baht scheme hospitals".

I think you're right. That is the conclusion he drew.

To me such a conclusions makes sense,

Not to me. Not at all.

I find it a bit odd that you obviously don't see a lack of distribution of
"high-priced' stuff such as a number of antibiotics" as an indication that
"the "better" cancer and heart drugs won't likely be dispensed at "30 baht
scheme hospitals"".
It could be possible that a hospital would save money on much cheaper drugs
than cancer drugs e.g antibiotics to save money to be spent on expensive
cancer drugs but would that be likely, I doubt that very much.
It doesn't seem sensible to me, I would think that a hospital that might be
poorely funded would try to cure more people (as much people as possible)
for the same buck and save on the really "expensive stuff".

I find your reaction all the more odd since earlier you did speak about the
creation of second class healtcare commenting on the "30 bath system":
"Unfortunately what he has actually created is what would be created in
the US if the various "universal health care" systems were inacted:
Second rate health care. My wife has commented regularly how happy she
and my in-laws are that they can see a regular doctor rather than a
"30 baht doctor"."
http://groups.google.nl/group/soc.culture.thai/msg/da4fb515ecdb8fb7

And he didn't claim he was drawing a
conclusion. He claimed he knew it for certainty and had proof.

is he right frankly I wouldn't know?

Neither do I. But neither you nor me claimed to have personal
experience and claimed that experience proved the point.

So basically you're saying you don't know if Maxwell is wrong but since
Maxwell claims he visited some hospitals spoke to some people he must be
wrong because he didn't say he drew some conclusions. is that it?:)


Should I believe you if you would claim the the "better" cancer and
heart drugs are being dispensed at "30 baht scheme hospitals", maybe
but it just doesn't make much sense to me, that a hospital with
likely a straint budget could dispense the more expensive stuff.
Frankly for the sake of the poor I'd rather see you're right about
this matter, that is that the more expensive (BTW, if indeed being
better) drugs are being dispensed in the 30 Bath hospitals to the
benefit of poorer Thai.

Another "lie" Maxwell told was implying that this hospital is
representative of the hospitals that treat the poor. In fact it's a
hospital that caters primarily to middle class Thai.

He called these hospitals "public hospitals" and wrote in the same post
"and in fact, the funding of clinics for so-called 'universal care' was
done at the expense of funds provided to public hospitals, which was
immediately evident in the staff reductions and increase in numbers of
doctors leaving public service for private in LOS."
http://groups.google.nl/group/soc.culture.thai/msg/a9e3ff8fe5bbd960
So it should be clear for anyone that he doesn't think the term "public
hospital" means the same as "a hospital under the 30 Bath scheme".
What he was implying that these hospitals don't dispense the more expensive
medicins another quote of Maxwells words: "Cancer or heart drugs in
Thailand? You want the 'good stuff,'you pay up from PRIVATE dispensaries
and pharmacies."
BTW do you want to make the point that the middle class Thai are treated
worst than the Thai poor in hospitals catering to these groups?



So the reality is
that those drugs aren't commonly available for middle class Thai,
either.

Now you're validating Maxwell's words about the availability of the more
expensive stuff to people under the 30 Bath scheme?!?!

So if there is a problem, it's not a failing of the 30 baht
scheme (which Maxwell was specifically trying to claim) but rather a
failing of the Thai health care system in general.

If the 30 baht scheme failed, IMHO it could well be that the Thai (public)
health care system in general would be affected.
Why are you, what looks to me so desperately, defending the "30 bath
scheme" when earlier you've essentially called a failure:
"Unfortunately what he has actually created is what would be created in
the US if the various "universal health care" systems were inacted:
Second rate health care. My wife has commented regularly how happy she
and my in-laws are that they can see a regular doctor rather than a
"30 baht doctor"."
http://groups.google.nl/group/soc.culture.thai/msg/da4fb515ecdb8fb7


Not uncommon in a
country that, like Thailand, is not up to First World economic levels
yet.

"Not up to First World economic levels yet" that almost sounds like you
think Thailand is a developing nation, did Thaksin convince you?:)

Your
experience was *NOT* about cancer drugs.

Maxwell never claimed he had to get cancer drugs, Maxwell drew a
conclusion about the availability of the more "expensive" cancer
drugs.

Maxwell was claiming that his experience with antibiotics proved
something about cancer drugs. Completely unrelated.


You don't have proof at all that these items are completely unrelated, you
can assume they are unrelated.


Second, you are assuming that
if someone comes in for cancer treatment and they don't have the
drugs in stock they won't bother getting them.

Not assuming about cancer drugs in general, but about the "expensive"
drugs being dispensed in 30 Bath hospitals.

No, the argument he was trying to prove was specifically about cancer
drugs. Context, context, context.

I'll rephrase myself, this what I meant:
Not assuming about cancer drugs in general, but about the "expensive"
CANCER drugs being dispensed in 30 Bath hospitals.


Third, you're
assuming that they way *you* as a foreigner were treated directly
correlates to how a Thai national covered by the insurance scheme
would be treated. Another bad assumption.

I think Maxwell didn't do such a thing at all, you're just assuming
he's assuming..
What IMHO he did assume was that some drugs weren't available at all
in 30 Bath hospitals, whether that would be for a foreigner or not.

There is no such thing as a 30 baht hospital.

Nice, reaction to the "core" of my words, you don't know what hospitals
actually were meant?
I just called them 30 bath hospitals a couple of times as short for "30
baht scheme hospitals" or better hospital that cater to people that are
insured under the "30 Bath scheme".
BTW, is there such a person as "30 baht doctor"?:)


Are you assuming a Thai national covered by the 30 Bath insurance
scheme would get expensive drugs dispensed that aren't available to
foreigners?

No. I'm saying I don't know.

It seems some years ago you felt did know that Thaksin created "Second rate
health care" but since Maxwell is critical about the system you're not that
critical anymore?!?!
Context, context that's it isn't it?:)

I'm saying Maxwell is desperately trying
to prove a point based, not on fact, but rather on his hatred of
Thaksin and TRT and PPP and will say anything or stretch any point to
try to prove it.

You sound rather desperate, especially considering how you yourself have
written about the "30 Bath scheme".

.

Your intentional ignorance of the fact that a
great many poor in Central and the South do NOT say that

They are not the majority.

That sounds like you're acknowledging your intentional ignorance.

No, I'm pointing out that Maxwell claiming that the minority of the
poor don't agree with the majority does not alter what the majority
think.

That wasn't the point why Maxwell mentioned the people in the South, he
mentioned them to draw attention to the fact that the poor don't speak with
one voice and "citing" them as speaking with one voice is ignoring the
diversity of their voices.


BTW I'm surprised that you think many of Chinese descent don't
respect the King, do you feel that Thai-Chinese you've met aren't
respectful of the King?
Would people (e.g. your "many of Chinese descent") trust a foreigner
to vent some disrepect to the King?

I have a good friend that refuses to wear yellow on Mondays out of
respect for the King. When I asked him about it he replied "He's not
*my* King".

Okay, but one friend doesn't constitute many Thai-Chinese.

Yes, I have good friends in Thailand with whom I can have
candid conversations.

shows once more
that 'TWAT' has Isaan=Thailand,

No, Isaan=the Majority of poor Thailand. Quit dropping words to
distort what has been said.

I think that remark by Maxwel  relates to what one could call your
often

"Isaan-centric" views of Thailand and your lack of recognition of
"what a great many poor in Central and the South" think about the
PPP.

And what about Maxwell's South centric views and the fact that he
ignores what the clear majority of the Thai poor have made clear is
their opinion?



As to Maxwell is it "South centric" to draw some attention to the South
when you seem to ignore them?
What the clear majority of the Thai poor have made clear, is a bit clear
with respect to some things, IMHO they clearly didn't want the Democrats to
win the election, but does that mean they speak with one voice and all have
the same interests, like the same policies and politicians, I don't think
so.


Nick
.

Relevant Pages