Re: OT - Spies, Lies and Wiretaps


Tchiowa wrote:
> Froggy wrote:
> > Tchiowa wrote:
> > >
> > > I, for one, support what they are doing.
> > >
> > > Let's make it simple: "I, as a patriotic American, hereby grant the US
> > > government the right to listen into any phone call in which I am a
> > > participant, regardless of where I am, without requiring a warrant."
> >
> > I guess that some "patriotic Americans" would have taken a very
> > different stance on that one.

I do not think they polled Benjamin Franklin ;-)

> lhat's true. But polls have shown that most Americans support the
> surveillance.
>
> > Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
> > temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin
> > Franklin
>
> I don't consider having my phone calls to Iran secure from government
> eavesdropping to be an "essential liberty".

I think that you might consider having your phone calls secure from
eavesdropping, generally, as an essential liberty.

At the same time you recognize that there are cases where a compromise
has to be made between respecting your rights and ensuring the safety
of others. The question is not whether you have a right to privacy, but
whether there is reason enough to curtail that right. And there is a
proper procedure for establishing this.

> > > Why not? Are you doing something you feel the need to hide?
> >
> > Not the need. The right.
>
> Why?

Dunno. But apparently the people who drafted your consitution felt
quite strongly about freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of
association, right to privacy, right to a fair and public trial,
respect for property rights etc...

Since you have nothing to hide, you do not care about the privacy
rights of others. By that logic, people who own nothing should not be
expected to feel strongly about the property rights of others.

> > Now you can decide to forfeit your right to privacy. But you are not
> > entitled to deny it to others.
> >
> > I suggest you read the Bill of Right, Amendment IV. The intention is
> > quite clear.
>
> Yes. Define "unreasonable". The courts have ruled that some warrantless
> wiretapping is just fine and not "unreasonable".

That may be relevant in the context of a discussion limited to the
wiretapping of some international calls. But you made a much broader
statement, saying that honest, patriotic Americans have nothing to hide
and should therefore surrender their right to privacy. Which implies
that people who insist on enforcing their right to privacy are not
honest, patriotic Americans. That clearly is not the spirit of the 4th
Amendment.

> > Now your reasoning is really distrurbing. By your rationale, if someone
> > objects to a search then surely they must have something illegal to
> > hide. And therefore there is a probable cause for the search.
>
> Depends on who wants to search. If a cop comes to my house and says he
> wants to search for drugs, no problem. I'll pour him a cup of coffee
> while he does it.

Yes. But you have to respect the fact that your neighbour, in similar
circumstances, would have the right to act differently.

> Interesting aside: The same people who are screaming the loudest about
> not trusting the government are also screaming just as loud that they
> want the government to control their health care.

Where do you read that you have a right to private rather public health
care?

> My view: stay away from my health care and listen to my phone calls all
> you'd like.

With that kingd of ideas you might want to move to China or other
communist-in-name-only countries ;-)

Cheers,

Froggy

.

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