Re: (off topic) Bush is dragging everyone down


peter wrote:
> Tchiowa wrote:

> > > But still, the payment to the African countries should be because of
> > > the guilt which was inherited from our ancestors, as you suggest, and
> > > the (white) Americans (except those from Sweden of course) have
> > > inherited just a heavy load of guilt as we Europeans (and by the way I
> > > am half swedish myself).
> >
> > Not guilt, repayment. Goods were stolen. Pay them back.
>
> Fine, repayment. And back to the question of "who". Why should
> countries not involved in slavetrade and colonialism have to pay for
> crimes committed by other countries? There are several countries which
> were not involved.

All the major countries were involved. All the rest benefited from the
boost in the economies of the continent.

> If you neighbour robs a store, do you help him with the repayment?

If I then go into business with that neighbor using the stolen money to
build our business then, yes, I am obligated to help repay. I profited
directly from the theft.

> > > Ah, yes of course! And then the Europeans gave away the country to a
> > > crowd of innocent Swedes? So the Europeans should also be paying to the
> > > American indians?
> > > "Huge payments" which make up for all the land and all the lives which
> > > were taken?
> >
> > As best we can.
>
> 555
> And what compensation did you pay to all the former slaves and their
> descendants? And to all the victims of the American version of
> apartheid and racial discrimination?

Several trillion dollars over the last few decades.

> > 10% of Europe's GDP won't make up for the tens, possibly hundreds of
> > millions of Africans killed either directly or starvation and disease
> > as a result of their treatment by the colonial powers. But you have to
> > do something.
>
> Something is being done, but I agree that it is not enough. And just
> how should it be handled?

By an investment organization of some sort run by Capitalists and not
the UN.

> It won't do anybody any good to just pour money into the African
> countries. Except of course the corrupt elite.

I agree.

> Or would you suggest that "Europe" starts another war in Africa in
> order to get rid of the present regimes?

It might not be a bad idea for Portugal to go remove the government of
Angola that it put in, or England to go fix the governmental mess in
Nigeria they created, or France to remove the corrupt governments they
created in Cameroon and the Congo, or Belgium to go take out the
corrupt government in DR Congo.

To name a few.

> > > OK, your family came from a European country which doesn't carry any of
> > > the "European guilt". Just funny that you should blame Europe as one,
> > > just until it comes a little too close. Then you can suddenly
> > > distinguish between the different countries and their part in history.
> >
> > Wrong. Sweden should have to pay the tax just like any other European
> > country. But you took it from countries to my personal ancestors and
> > you asked about our specific guilt. Different question, different
> > answer.
>
> This is interesting. Sweden (among several others) should pay for
> crimes committed by other countries simply because of geography?

Yes, because they directly benefited from the theft.

> But you don't think that the US should pay? After all the majority of
> the population in the US come from European countries which excelled in
> the exploitation of Africa.

?? I said that the US should pay. But I said that the payment should be
in direct proportion to the benefit. The US didn't benefit from
European colonialism in Africa. All of Europe did.

> > I've spent nearly a decade living and working in Africa (Angola, DR
> > Congo-Zaire, R Congo-French, Nigeria). I've learned about what happened
> > to them in colonial days and I've seen what's happening to them now.
> > Seen it first hand.
> >
> > Every country has parts of their history that they aren't proud of. But
> > Europe continues to this day to abuse Africa. And the legacy of the
> > political divisions they created then abandoned the Africans to is
> > still causing war and death. Today. Not a hundred years ago. Not in the
> > history books. In the lives of real people right now today in Africa.
>
> "Europe continues to this day to abuse Africa".
> Please explain.

Again? You didn't listen the first time? Central African Franc?
Nigerian government run by the North as directed by Lord Harcourt? I
listed several examples.

> > > And while we are at it, did the US clean up after themselves in
> > > Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos?
> >
> > Not in Vietnam much because we haven't been there. But we have done
> > quite a bit in the last decade in Cambodia and Laos.
>
> Peanuts when compared to the magnitude of the problem.

Actually not. Ask the people who live there.

> > What Europeans are doing in Africa is killing people after breakfast
> > this morning.
>
> Are you talking about "government-sponsored" actions? I think this
> requires a little explanation. Or should I say documentation?

I'm talking about government sponsored actions over the past several
centuries, some of which continue to this day, all of which continue to
harm Africa.

Nigeria is in tatters because Lord Harcourt arbitrarily gave power to
the North because he was afraid that if power resided in the South
(where all the natural resources are) the resulting government could
fight back against the British. The Portuguese threw the independent
nation of Cabinda into Angola so that they could administer it more
easily and the Angolans are stealing it blind (there is so much wealth
in Cabinda that during the Angolan Civil War both sides agreed not to
fight in Cabinda so that the winner could claim the wealth). Belgium is
the one who created the Hutu/Tutsi problem in Rwanda that resulted in a
million deaths just a few years ago (while Europe sat with their
fingers up their butts and asked for the UN to handle it - which, of
course, they did in their normal way of hand-wringing and speeches
while people died). France, Portugal and Belgium split up the Kikongo
tribe and turned them into minorities in larger countries. France
overthrew an elected government in Algeria just a few years ago because
they didn't like their politics. The land battles going on in Zimbabwe
are a direct result of British colonialists stealing all the land. Want
to talk about Italy in Ethiopia or the Dutch in South Africa or the
French in the Ivory Coast or ......

How far do you want to go? How completely unaware of what your
governments did and are continuing to do are you? You seem to be
anxious to learn whatever you can that you think you can blame on
America? Why don't you learn a bit about your own part of the world?
You don't need me to look it all up for you, do you? Don't they have
history books in Denmark?

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