Re: (off topic) Bush is dragging everyone down


Tchiowa wrote:
> peter wrote:
> > Tchiowa wrote:
>
> I'm not talking about taxing Europe for their role in the slave trade.
> I'm talking about taxing Europe for centuries of colonialism in Africa
> where they basically stole the wealth of a continent and based their
> economies on that. Did colonialism account for 10% of European
> economies? At least.
>
> Actually Portugal was the biggest slave trader over time.

Well, I read that the british held that title, but that's not
important.
How big a part of the European economies was based upon colonialism, I
have no idea. I haven't been able to find any documentation.

>
> > But still, the payment to the African countries should be because of
> > the guilt which was inherited from our ancestors, as you suggest, and
> > the (white) Americans (except those from Sweden of course) have
> > inherited just a heavy load of guilt as we Europeans (and by the way I
> > am half swedish myself).
>
> Not guilt, repayment. Goods were stolen. Pay them back.

Fine, repayment. And back to the question of "who". Why should
countries not involved in slavetrade and colonialism have to pay for
crimes committed by other countries? There are several countries which
were not involved.
If you neighbour robs a store, do you help him with the repayment?
No, I didn't think so.

>
> > > > At the same time, why don't you non-native Americans pay the American
> > > > indians for the land you have stolen? No, of course not, the europeans
> > > > stole it, and they should be the ones to pay.
> > >
> > > Actually it was primarily the Europeans, in case you forgot your
> > > history. But in the meantime America has already made and continues to
> > > make huge payments to the native Americans.
> >
> > Ah, yes of course! And then the Europeans gave away the country to a
> > crowd of innocent Swedes? So the Europeans should also be paying to the
> > American indians?
> > "Huge payments" which make up for all the land and all the lives which
> > were taken?
>
> As best we can.

555
And what compensation did you pay to all the former slaves and their
descendants? And to all the victims of the American version of
apartheid and racial discrimination?

>
> 10% of Europe's GDP won't make up for the tens, possibly hundreds of
> millions of Africans killed either directly or starvation and disease
> as a result of their treatment by the colonial powers. But you have to
> do something.

Something is being done, but I agree that it is not enough. And just
how should it be handled?
It won't do anybody any good to just pour money into the African
countries. Except of course the corrupt elite.
Or would you suggest that "Europe" starts another war in Africa in
order to get rid of the present regimes?

> >
> > OK, your family came from a European country which doesn't carry any of
> > the "European guilt". Just funny that you should blame Europe as one,
> > just until it comes a little too close. Then you can suddenly
> > distinguish between the different countries and their part in history.
>
> Wrong. Sweden should have to pay the tax just like any other European
> country. But you took it from countries to my personal ancestors and
> you asked about our specific guilt. Different question, different
> answer.

This is interesting. Sweden (among several others) should pay for
crimes committed by other countries simply because of geography?
But you don't think that the US should pay? After all the majority of
the population in the US come from European countries which excelled in
the exploitation of Africa.

>
> I've spent nearly a decade living and working in Africa (Angola, DR
> Congo-Zaire, R Congo-French, Nigeria). I've learned about what happened
> to them in colonial days and I've seen what's happening to them now.
> Seen it first hand.
>
> Every country has parts of their history that they aren't proud of. But
> Europe continues to this day to abuse Africa. And the legacy of the
> political divisions they created then abandoned the Africans to is
> still causing war and death. Today. Not a hundred years ago. Not in the
> history books. In the lives of real people right now today in Africa.

"Europe continues to this day to abuse Africa".
Please explain.

>
> > And while we are at it, did the US clean up after themselves in
> > Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos?
>
> Not in Vietnam much because we haven't been there. But we have done
> quite a bit in the last decade in Cambodia and Laos.

Peanuts when compared to the magnitude of the problem.

>
> What Europeans are doing in Africa is killing people after breakfast
> this morning.

Are you talking about "government-sponsored" actions? I think this
requires a little explanation. Or should I say documentation?

.

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