Re: Leodhasach & Hearasch - Gaelic help please


"Karen McDonald" <karen1215@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:erlfa3hsh4384kero0eop2062ld0kud4qb@xxxxxxxxxx
On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 15:25:39 +0100, "allan connochie"
<allan@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


I didn't mean to sound off-hand and apologise if it came across like that.

No worries. But you didn't come over as offhand. You were just
expressing a view.

I think it is important to boost Gaelic as well, but just disagree on how
that
can be best done. I just believe that the limited resources would best be
targeted to the traditional Highland Gaelic areas and the larger Lowland
cities where there may well be enough call for more Gaelic teaching
because
of the population. That way £ for £ the Executive could get the best
value.
Far more so than trying to push Gaelic onto a the rural Lowlands where of
course our own traditional language is even more neglected than Gaelic is.

Fair enough. But would I be correct in assuming that by 'our own
traditional language' you really mean ' a localised version of
English'? Here in Glasgow there is 'the patter'. Yet, most foreigners
who speak English soon get the gist of it. Not so Gaelic, which
meseems is quite obscure to English speakers.

It would be absurd, and thouroughly anglocentric to define what is and what
isn't a language purely by whether it is related to English or not.
Linguistically there is no real argument as all modes of speech are both
language and dialects. Of course Scots is closely related to English as it
stems from the old Northumbrian dialect of Anglo-Saxon. In other words it is
like Gaelic as Gaelic has a similar relationship with Irish. What we choose
to put in the language basket or dialect basket has as much to do with
identity and politics as it has to do with linguistics. There are for
instance seemingly dialects of Chinese which are basically unintelligable to
those speaking other dialects of Chinese - whilst some national lanaguages
are as closely related to other lanagages as Scots is to Standard English.
Scots was at one time regarded as the national language of government; its
vocab can differ greatly from standard English; it has its own grammatical
features from standard English; it has a wide range of living dialects (
ranging from the much maligned and quite anglicised Glaswegian through more
conservative dialects like Shetlandic, Border Scots and the Doric); it has a
literary canon which is far larger than any other supposed dialect of
English within England; and of course lastly despite your protestations it
is legally regarded as a language in its own right by all the authorities
who matter.





Many of the primary teachers here struggle with the annual Burns
competitions etc

Is this not a fault of the education system - especially at B.Ed/PGCE
level? Then again - Burns wrote in a localised version of English,
which does not take as long to get the hang of as does Gaelic.

Burns wrote in various ways. He wrote some poems in Standard English; he
wrote some in the semi-standard Scots of his day which was based on the
Lothian dialect; and he wrote some in his own Ayrshire dialect of the Scots
language. Very often he chopped and changed, mixed and matched, even within
the same poem.

For
instance - using existing knowledge I can make sense of Spanish,
German, Portuguese, French and Italian newspapers. But, up until
recently, not a thing could I make sense of in Gaelic - written or
spoken.

Makes a lot of sense. Whatever one is talking about there is no-one more
prone to extremism than the recent convert. You should try speaking to
Highlander a bit more. As well as being steeped in his Gaelic tradition he
has a fine knowldege of Border Scots. He had family connections in the area
and poor soul, by accident of birth, he was actually born in Galashiels. He
is someone who truly appreciates Scottish culture in that you won't find
anyone more in love with Gaeldom yet he also truly appreciates Lowland
Culture. You don't need to dismiss one in order to support the other.





never mind introducing Gaelic too. Of course all of
Scotland's history should be taught everywhere and there is no harm in
introducing some music and song of the Gael. However it would be absurd to
recruit Gaelic speaking teachers in for instance Jedburgh just to teach
the
kids a waulking song or two when the Border Ballads themselves are
completely ignored at the present.

Well, these should not be ignored of course. They are an intrinsic
part of your heritage. The answer to promoting local cultures might be
to call on the services of the many old folk in the area who would be
more than happy to pass their knowledge on to youngsters.

A so Gaelic culture is a national culture which needs to be a compulsory
part of the curriculum, whilst Scots culture is just of local interest so we
could just get some old worthie in off the street to deal with that?

Despite past histories the vast majority of people who are supporters of the
Scots language also support Gaelic and vice versa. In other words they are
interested in Scottish culture and not just one aspect of Scottish culture.
There is no need to promote one over the other.





There was a study done recently in Selkirk High School where their
attitude
to Scotland's languages was examined. In general most pupils seemed to
agree
that supporting Gaelic was important, however hardly any of them had any
interest in learning the language themselves.

There are many subjects that children do not like learning at school.
I had no interest in learning netball or hockey. But I had to play
these games because it was decreed that I should. Furthermore, in my
view, there is too much emphasis these days on what children 'want'
rather than on what they 'need' or what is best for them. You just
have to visit your local supermarket to see proof of this. Today's
parents pander to youngsters ower much.

It is an absurd comparison though. Sport is a universal subject whilst
hockey or netball are only parts of that subject. Languages is a universal
subject. Gaelic isn't! It is only part of languages. I can see no good
logical or practical reason for forcing everyone in Scotland to speak
Gaelic.



Sport has always been pushed hard in schools
because it is seen as an excellent control surface for managing the
population. If Gaelic or Border Ballads or Doric or whatever were seen
to serve the same or a similar purpose the money required for
promoting these areas would be found in jig time and henceforth there
would be no need for you or I to have a conversation like this one.

Sport is a universal subject. The fact that some kids don't like it is by
the by. I agree that all the above are important but as well as being part
of the national culture they are all, including Gaelic, part of more
localised cultures too. Education should take regard of everyone's more
local or regional culture. That is true for someone from Oban, Hawick or
London or wherever.




There has been real vitriolic correspondence in the Southern Reporter
recently concerning the signs and information boards on Carter Bar. One
writer defending the new Gaelic signs made absurd claims that
Brittonic/Cymric was never spoken in Southern Scotland/Northern England
and
that Gaelic is the original indiginous language, and that it was here long
before Northumbrian/Scots arrived. Anyone who disgreed was anti-Gaelic!

Nowadays this is a stance typical of those with an 'agenda' - no
matter what its nature.

It was clear to me from your first post that there was an agenda!



The Global Warming thingy and all these foreign wars are principally
designed to serve the interests of the USA. Common sense, reason and
actual fact don't come into it. Look at the wheen o' fibs Blair told
to get us into Iraq? Scandalous.

Common sense and actual fact don't come into your argument either though.
Again take the Borders which just happens to be where I live so it is easy
to use. 99.7% of the population don't speak Gaelic. Of the 0.3% who do well
some will only know it to a certain level, possibly some no more than a few
words. Hence somewhere short of (actual number unknown) 300 souls out of
100,000 people - in the entire eastern side of southern Scotland speak good
Gaelic. Most of those will either be adult Gaels who have moved to the
Borders or children of Gaels who have moved. There are two families in my
own street who have both been here for a while. One couple both speak Gaelic
but they haven't passed the lanaguage on to their two children. The other
family has a Gaelic speaking father only. the wife is a Glaswegian who has
never learned the language whilst the three daughters only speak a
smattering. We have family friends where the mother is French. All her three
children are fluent in French as well as English. Basically she ensures she
speaks to them in French much of the time. The way the decline of Gaelic can
be best halted is by encouraging Gaels to pass the language on to the next
generations. That kind of loss can never be replaced by reluctant school
kids being force fed an alien language. Obviously the easiest place for
people to pass on their language is in the Gaelic speaking areas, or
arguably large urban centres, where kids can converse with other Gaelic
speaking kids in their own environment.





Mind - if you keep repeating something often enough, most people will
believe you. So maybe we should start doing the same a propos Gaelic
and local cultures generally.

People were repeatedly told that Scots was just a dialect of English and
many people, seemingly including yourself, do believe it. Again your
differentiation between Gaelic, perceived by you as a national culture; and
Scots culture, perceived by you as a number of local cultures; is I believe
totally incorrect.


Others who were more factually correct denied that and stated Gaelic only
had a relatively fleeting and thin existence in the Borders. None of that
is
relevent of course as Carter Bar is an entrance to Scotland and not just
to
The Borders hence of course there should be a Gaelic sign as well as the
existing English one.

Quite.

That doesn't change the fact though that some people
feel strongly that the real culture of this area is being further
sidelined
as it is ignored in the information boards etc, leaving tourists
especially
with a completely false impression. Hence we shouldn't pretend Scotland is
something it isn't just to please relatively small pressure groups.

I agree. But because Gaelic is so unique I think it would be a
galvanising force that would lend a clear 'Scottishness' to Scotland.

Scots culture is just as Scottish as Gaelic culture is. It is absurd to
claim otherwise. Scottishness defines itself and doesn't need to be defined
by how different it is from English culture! What you are suggesting seems
to be that we should pretend the culture of certain parts of Scotland are
Gaelic just to appear less like the English.


This is why I think it should be taught in every primary school
alongside the many local variations of English that have prevailed in
Scotland for ages. I am not agin what you say. I just think that
Gaelic, owing to its unique properties, should aye take precedence.

What 'unique' properties does Gaelic have that Scots doesn't? The only thing
I can think of is a standard written form which is in itself always an
atrificial construct. Scots has its sister language in English whilst Gaelic
has its sister languages of Irish and Manx. I wouldn't expect the teaching
of Scots culture to take precedence in Stornoway anymore than the idea that
Gaelic culture should take precedence in Kelso! Both would be ridiculous
ideas. The country has had too much linguistic bigotry in the past to start
on those kinds of ideas now. It is a pipe dream anyway. You can't force your
own personal linguistic vision on the real world anymore than I could.





Prior to the take over by Standard English the country had dual cultures
(Gaelic and
Scots in tandem) and of course it still has both of these. We shouldn't
promote one side of Scotland over the other.

Again I agree. But surely 'Scots' is just a variation of English and
thus a lot easier to understand and pass on than a special,
independent language like Gaelic?

The upturn in Gaelic has been brought around by clever campaigning by the
Gaelic lobby which included working for recognition under the European
Charter. Despite your own views regarding the status of Scots that said
language is also recognised as such under the charter by the European,
Westminster and Scottish Parliaments. So no you can't simply dismiss Scots
as a variation of English whilst claiming Gaelic is unique.

Indeed some might aver that 'Scots'
is merely 'slang' English. Whereas no such description could ever be
applied to Gaelic, which is a language completely different from
English altogether.

This is absurd though. The definition of what is and isn't a language isn't
purely based on whether it is related to English or not. Then again of
course as you said if you're told something often enough!




In summary, I think Gaelic should be taught at a preferential level in
every Scottish primary school because:

1. It would be a galvanising force for Scotland.

The support of both of Scotland's homegrown minority languages would be a
galvanising force as long as neither were forced upon English speaking
monoglots. The forcing of every school child to speak Gaelic, which is in
essence not the native culture of vast numbers of Scots, could only be
divisive.



2. It would challenge the developing minds of youngsters far more so
than would learning a particular local variation of 'Scots'.

Learning any language develops the mind. Considering how bad we are at
modern languages developing our skills in those would be far more useful and
realistic.



3. It would uncover an entire heritage that is always deeply hidden
from English speakers who can usually make some sense of mainstream
European languages, but not the Celtic ones - which have entirely
different roots and are thus obscure.

The teaching of Scotland's history and culture is of course important but of
course that is completely different from forcing everyone to learn Gaelic.
As previously said we should be done with any kind of cultural imperialism.


4. If Gaelic eventually became the official Scottish tongue, both the
Scottish people and 'the language' would be advanced in consequence. A
genuine symbiotic relationship would accrue.

Not based on any kind of reality. There is nothing wrong with having Gaelic
as an official language of Scotland, in fact I would support that, but to
have it as 'the official language' of Scotland is plain silly. At a stroke
you would have around 98% of the population of Scotland not able to speak
their own country's official langauge - and in areas like mine that would
rise to around 99.7% of the population.



5. A Gaelic-speaking Scotland would be well in tune with our nearest
neighbour across the water - Ireland.

Remembering of course that Ireland isn't actually our nearest neighbour. We
have a land border with England!


A friend of mine from County
Cork understands Scots Gaelic perfectly.

Yet earlier in this post you claimed that Scottish Gaelic was unique whilst
Scots was related to English?



6. It would create more jobs in education.

I can think of many more useful and needed subjects for the pupils of the
likes of Kelso and Jedburgh to have or be improved. We can't base our
education system on the narrow views of a tiny minority, which would even be
a tiny minority of Gaels never mind Scots in general.


Allan






.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The whole dialect business
    ... >>> But of course Scots has a very full and complex legal jargon. ... > made it either a language or a dialect. ... > "Defender" in this context is quite different from the English language word ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: The whole dialect business
    ... >>linguistic studies as a clear marker between Scots and English, ... >>Scots did not, as Scotland was never conquered by the Normans ... >>language in its own right. ... Dialect speakers always understand the Standard form (colloqueal Scots ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: Leodhasach & Hearasch - Gaelic help please
    ... course our own traditional language is even more neglected than Gaelic is. ... who speak English soon get the gist of it. ... is someone who truly appreciates Scottish culture in that you won't find ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: The whole dialect business
    ... >>> actually is in Scots and in what you think is the English equivalency. ... Dictionary of the English Language, ... > which are current international borders). ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: A testimonial to The Highlander!
    ... the Scots are a clever, ... trouble") offers a fair picture of the country they love. ... anyone who can allow his or her language to be ... Especially when it is English social pressure which causes this ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)