Re: Deviance


"Val Adams" <va_adams@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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R.Peffers. wrote:
"Val Adams" <va_adams@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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R.Peffers. wrote:

"Val Adams" <va_adams@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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[...]

GUFFAW! Yes, I avoid 'reality' shows like the plague, but presumably
Someone watches them, they keep getting sponsored.
We were talking- or arguing, or a bit of both- in another group about
'modern education'; wondering if the reaction to over-strict teaching
had not bellied-up to a condition where so much effort is expended
trying to keep the litle savage's psyches unwounded that the goal of
LEARNING something had been abrogated.


It is probably a lot less complicated than that. The family concept has
gone and the state is expected to have responsibility for everything
from sex education to training in the social graces.In attempting to do
this they are not able to also educate the little darlings and the three
"R"'s. So neither is really taught to the little Darlings. The result is
plain to see.
So now we have a lazy, spoiled, self indulgent teenager with a poor
education who will neither work nor want, and all because the parents
thought that the responsibillity for bringing up their offsprings had
the states and not theirs.



I remember being appalled when my daughter, then in 5th grade, (early
60s) did not know what a paragraph was. This was just about the time'
new math' was coming in over here, and parents were discouraged from
getting involved.
Cut nothing with me, needless to say, she understood paragraphing quite
well before the week was out but.. one does wonder if things were not
already starting to drift in a weak direction..
It's lovely to get out of school with your self-esteem intact
but..where is the joy of winning a spelling bee when neither winning or
losing is allowed?

The nail is smacked firmly on the head - A little bruising of little
egos is a very healthy thing.

Footprint bordering on absurd here, did some chopping, hope clean cuts.

Not sure I follow your reasoning here about 'family concept being gone'.
I mean, families do tend to be smaller now, yes, city jobs wont maintain
large families like farms or fishing would, nor do we as a rule have that
horrendous infant mortality to try to circumvent; but most all the
parents I know are still pretty involved with their kids. Not that our
kids arent 'spoiled', but none of them are really lazy in the sense I
think you are using it, as being unable or unwilling to get and keep
jobs. We're only a small subset of the total population, of course, but
still...


That was not the point. In most families now both parents are out
working. They thus farm the kids out at a very early age to the care of
either, nursery school, child minders or to a Grandparent. There is a
definite shift to put the teachings of what were once the family values
and such things as manners, consideration for others, sex education, road
drill and Christian values in the hands of these surrogates or the
education system.

I think I understand your point better, but dont think I am qualified to
debate it. From my perspective it is an elitist kind of viewpoint from a
part of society I am simply not familiar with, the 2 parent home.
Err! Would it make any difference if I explained that my father went off to
war and my mother went to work in the war effort. She was there but not as
the all day mother. My Grandparents did most of the parenting.
My grandfather died of pneumonia when my mom was 3, and gramma did not
marry again for 12 long years. My dad never came back from WW2. My kids
dad..the less said the better in a public forum, but he's dead now too in
any case.
You think my Gran didn't work? We were farming stock we all bloody well
worked from the moment we could carry something.

The women in my family have always worked. Basically we had two choices,
work or welfare; 3, if you count whoring, but as we none of us had the
looks or temperament to make a success of that and all of us disliked the
state prying in to our lives, we all chose work.

As did we. I never had a days unemployed in my life.

Likewise, we have always depended on extended family for child care;
public care facilites were not even widely available until relatively late
in our family development, and some of those that were came straight out
of Dickens.

You de realise that the Grandparents now-a-days are too busy enjoying
themselves to care for Grandchildren on a regular basis.

Better by far a neurotic & overworked grandparent who CARES than a canting
egoist with an authority complex and a state supplement.
That is not to say none of the kids had problems; of which you may
correctly surmise alienation from society at large is a major one, but we
have had our share of the lesser as well. Not much in to 'terrorizing the
neighbors' but certainly drugs and alcohol have taken their toll.(shrug)
what would you; there are runts in every litter; I think we have NOT had
MORE than our share, and over time most of ours have straightened
themselves out.

Rebellion is a normal part of growing up. The difference is that it is
normally brought back under control with a little help from the familky
before there is too much harm done. Trouble is there are too many where it
is not even tackled now and the spiral just goes on to destruction.
There are some definite advantages to knowing yourself a member of a group
where 'working' is a major standard of acceptable behavior.

Indeed there is and that is another great returner to the straight and
narrow.

I have seen actual cases where parents have sued schools claiming that
the schools were negligent. Where are these parents while their kids are
out terrorising others in the streets? Where are they when their kids are
buying, pushing or using drugs? Where are they when their kids are
getting out of their minds on cheap booze? Where are the parents of the
gangs fighting each other on the streets of our towns and cities? Well to
be fair I do know where some of them are - out doing the same as their
kids. I have seen these things happening within my own family, nothing
serious you understand, but it was my late wife and I who though to check
on the behaviour of a grandson who we though was getting too much rope.
We were right and we found him and some friends in a nearby town smashed
out of his skull on cheap booze and reeking of cigarette smoke. Now that
is exactly what we expect our kids will do at that stage in their lives
but that was not the point. What is was that the two parents had no idea
where he was, who he was with or what he was doing. Now we did not make a
big thing about it but we did let him know we had seen what he was doing.
That was enough to make him ashamed of himself and now, many years later,
he said to me one evening, "I'm glad you and Gran caught me out being a
bit wild". I said, "What brought that on". He replied I just heard that
three of the five other guys I was running with then are now doing time
and another one is dead with an overdose. No one knows where the other
one went. They could have been me if you had not made me ashamed of
myself".

Kids need to find out exactly where the limits of acceptable behaviour
lie. They actually feel much more secure when they are given these
limits.

chuckle; Think you are supporting my view more than yours here;
grandparents ARE good sources of behavioral standards.

Only if they are on the straight and narrow themselves. So many now are not
and I know families where the eldest are as bad as the youngest and they are
all tearaways. There is all the difference in the World between a working
parent who comes home after work and has time for the kids and quite another
when they come home, dress for the evening and head for the pub or club.
I have heard the same from my son, too. I think that it is hard for kids
to know parents care when mom and/or dad are so beat from the days work
they have not the energy to follow up on activities. I think perhaps there
is not for some a clear enough distinction between young folks' 'liberty',
which is a necessity of the working family's circumstances and 'license',
which may in part be a failure to establish/acknowldge the young person's
membership-and VALUE- in the family schema. One needs to be a little
over-expressive here, and grandparents are very good at that.

My point is that some of the parents and grandparents are not at all
interested in the welfare of the kids. Oh! Yes they will give them anything
their hearts desire, anything that is except what they really need, someone
who actually cares what they are doing and shows an interest in their
little, and sometimes big, problems. Most kids are perceptive enough to know
when their parents actually care or just tolerate them.
--

Robert Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
(When replying take pam away from peffers.
Scotland).


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