Re: The whole dialect business


Robert Peffers wrote:
> "Robert Peffers" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:dnmkj4$m7j$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > <AlanEdgey@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:1134473673.916221.262900@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>
> >> Robert Peffers wrote:
> >>> <AlanEdgey@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> >>> news:1134347927.954451.180720@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >
> >>> > Patrick MacPhuck wrote:
> >>> >> AlanEdgey@xxxxxxx wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> > allan connochie wrote:
> >>> >> > > If it is purely linguistic then you could also view Gaelic as a
> >>> >> > > dialect of Irish and even more so the Norwegian languages are
> >>> >> > > merely
> >>> >> > > Danish.
> >>> >> > > The list goes on for ever more. The fact is what is and what
> >>> >> > > isn't a
> >>> >> > > language often has more to do with cultural and political factors
> >>> >> > > than
> >>> >> > > anything else. So yes, my supporting the current recognised
> >>> >> > > status of
> >>> >> > > Scots
> >>> >> > > is a positive recognition of Scotland's seperate tradition,
> >>> >> > > culture
> >>> >> > > and
> >>> >> > > history. You are denying or at least attempting to diminish these
> >>> >> > > factors.
> >>> >> > >
> >>> >> > Comparrisons with Gaealic and Irish. Norwegian and Danish are
> >>> >> > disingenuous. They are Ausbau languages taught in school. Danish
> >>> >> > and
> >>> >> > Norwegian are taught in their respective countries and are used at
> >>> >> > all
> >>> >> > levels of society for all things. Scots isn't because it functions
> >>> >> > as a
> >>> >> > dialect of English and Standard (written) English is used.
> >>> >> >
> >>> >> > Politicians declaring the moon to be made of cheese or rockets
> >>> >> > being
> >>> >> > prepared in 45 minutes doesn't necessarily mean its true. Political
> >>> >> > acceptance of Scots as a language it just PC pandering. I see no
> >>> >> > evidence of Scots being used a ubiquitous alternative to standard
> >>> >> > English in Scotland.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> If the Nazis had won WW2 and banned Dutch, do you think you would
> >>> >> hear
> >>> >> Dutch being spoken 'ubiquitously'?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Dutch is very similar to German, but still a language.
> >>> >>
> >>> > The Nazis occupied the Netherlands for a few years and never made any
> >>> > attempt to ban Dutch then. Why would they want to do so if they won
> >>> > the
> >>> > war?
> >>> >
> >>> > Are you implying that Scots is somehow banned?
> >>> >
> >>> > Alan
> >>> >
> >>> Yes. Until a few years ago Scots was effectively proscribed from the
> >>> Scottish Education system. Furthermore, not so long age, the BBC used
> >>> the so
> >>> called BBC English. Even on what was then the Home Service it was rare
> >>> to
> >>> hear ant Scots other than a little Glasgow accented Scottish Standard
> >>> English.
> >>
> >> Schools in England also taught standard English to their pupils and not
> >> their local dialect of English.
> > You seem to be getting rather mixed up now.
> > That was my point. The BBC broadcast in BBC English, which in itself was a
> > dialect of English.
> >> The BBC ignored various dialects from
> >> England just as much as did those from Scotland.
> > Exactly the point I was making. What point are you attempting to make?
> >>
> >> People in Scotland were of course still free to speak Scottish dialects.
> >
> > This is where you seem to lose the plot. The people of Scotland were, and
> > still are, speaking dialects of Lowland Scots but the BBC were not
> > broadcasting Scots any language, except Gaelic, but were broadcasting
> > English Language. Furthermore you are wrong in your point that the BBC
> > ignored English Dialects. Their longest running soap opera is actually
> > still being broadcast and still uses English Dialect. It is, of course,
> > "The Archers". In those days the were also broadcasting such as, "Mrs
> > Dale's Diary", and a host of other English dialect programmes on the
> > national networks. They did have, "The McFlannels", on the Home service
> > but this used , "Scottish Standard English", with a Glasgow accent, rather
> > than Lowland Scots. What is more it was only broadcast in Scotland while
> > English dialects were broadcast on the whole network.
> >
> >> among themselves or were the language police out and about beating it
> >> out of them?
> >
> > Yes it was beaten out of them in the schools and was frowned upon by the
> > authorities, your daft reference to, "Language Police", is noted.
> >
> > In this era too we had the emergence of, "The would-be Toffs", in
> > Scotland. These last manufactured for themselves the very laughable,
> > "Moarningsaid", and, "Kelvainsaid", accents that were used to, "Elevait",
> > "thaimsialves", above the common herd. Many were the slips between brains
> > and lips made by these laughable factions. This was known amont the
> > aforementioned common herd as, "Opening your tiny petallike mouth and
> > puttin yer big fut in it". I actually heard this classic while on a tram
> > car in Prince's Street, "It rained as the happy couple came from the Kirk
> > and the groom very gallantly draped his clock over the bride;s shoulders".
> > We had a geography teacher who, on failing to get an answer to a question,
> > stamped her foot saying, "Children! Children! Ostend", and the whole class
> > rose to its feet.
> >
> > However it is also noted that you say, "People in Scotland were of course
> > still free to speak Scottish dialects". A tacit acknowledgement they were
> > speaking dialects of Scots rather than English. perhaps?
> > --
> >
> > Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
> > Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
> > Kelty,
> > Fife,
> > Scotland, (UK).
> > Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Alan
> >>
> >
> >
> About that Scots language thing?
> I came across this little snippet while looking for something else on the
> net. It was a long standing advert on a wall around the Gilmerton area of
> Edinburgh and read, 'walth o' straw, five bawbees a wunlin'.
>
> I see some Scots in there but also some is a bit Anglified. The word,
> "straw", sticks out as English rather than the more usual Scots usage of,
> "Strae". Perhaps the process of Anglicisation that is still going on had an
> influence then too. Off the top of my head I would translate the ad as,
> "Plenty, (large quantity), of straw, tuppence-halfpenny a bundle". I am
> assuming here that ,"Wundle", is the local usage of the more common,
> "Windle".
>
> Let's put it this way - that advert was on the walls of Edinburgh when the
> Cable-trams ran to the Gilmerton Road area of the city and shows the
> contemporary English of the day was not the norm for Edinburgers of that
> time. Perhaps those who would have it that Scots is an English dialect would
> care to show the English equivalents or those Scots words?

Its English Bob. English written to show how it is spoken in Scotland.

walth - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=wealth
o' - note apostrophe to mark as dialect usually spelled of
straw - speaks for itself
five - so does this
bawbees - http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=bawbee
a - general English indefinite article
wunlin' - note apostrophe to indicate dialect, Scottish pronunciation
of windling http://www.hayinart.com/000141.html

No equivalents just the same words.

Alan

.

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