Re: The whole dialect business


"Robert Peffers" <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dnmkj4$m7j$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> <AlanEdgey@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:1134473673.916221.262900@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> Robert Peffers wrote:
>>> <AlanEdgey@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:1134347927.954451.180720@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >
>>> > Patrick MacPhuck wrote:
>>> >> AlanEdgey@xxxxxxx wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > allan connochie wrote:
>>> >> > > If it is purely linguistic then you could also view Gaelic as a
>>> >> > > dialect of Irish and even more so the Norwegian languages are
>>> >> > > merely
>>> >> > > Danish.
>>> >> > > The list goes on for ever more. The fact is what is and what
>>> >> > > isn't a
>>> >> > > language often has more to do with cultural and political factors
>>> >> > > than
>>> >> > > anything else. So yes, my supporting the current recognised
>>> >> > > status of
>>> >> > > Scots
>>> >> > > is a positive recognition of Scotland's seperate tradition,
>>> >> > > culture
>>> >> > > and
>>> >> > > history. You are denying or at least attempting to diminish these
>>> >> > > factors.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > Comparrisons with Gaealic and Irish. Norwegian and Danish are
>>> >> > disingenuous. They are Ausbau languages taught in school. Danish
>>> >> > and
>>> >> > Norwegian are taught in their respective countries and are used at
>>> >> > all
>>> >> > levels of society for all things. Scots isn't because it functions
>>> >> > as a
>>> >> > dialect of English and Standard (written) English is used.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Politicians declaring the moon to be made of cheese or rockets
>>> >> > being
>>> >> > prepared in 45 minutes doesn't necessarily mean its true. Political
>>> >> > acceptance of Scots as a language it just PC pandering. I see no
>>> >> > evidence of Scots being used a ubiquitous alternative to standard
>>> >> > English in Scotland.
>>> >>
>>> >> If the Nazis had won WW2 and banned Dutch, do you think you would
>>> >> hear
>>> >> Dutch being spoken 'ubiquitously'?
>>> >>
>>> >> Dutch is very similar to German, but still a language.
>>> >>
>>> > The Nazis occupied the Netherlands for a few years and never made any
>>> > attempt to ban Dutch then. Why would they want to do so if they won
>>> > the
>>> > war?
>>> >
>>> > Are you implying that Scots is somehow banned?
>>> >
>>> > Alan
>>> >
>>> Yes. Until a few years ago Scots was effectively proscribed from the
>>> Scottish Education system. Furthermore, not so long age, the BBC used
>>> the so
>>> called BBC English. Even on what was then the Home Service it was rare
>>> to
>>> hear ant Scots other than a little Glasgow accented Scottish Standard
>>> English.
>>
>> Schools in England also taught standard English to their pupils and not
>> their local dialect of English.
> You seem to be getting rather mixed up now.
> That was my point. The BBC broadcast in BBC English, which in itself was a
> dialect of English.
>> The BBC ignored various dialects from
>> England just as much as did those from Scotland.
> Exactly the point I was making. What point are you attempting to make?
>>
>> People in Scotland were of course still free to speak Scottish dialects.
>
> This is where you seem to lose the plot. The people of Scotland were, and
> still are, speaking dialects of Lowland Scots but the BBC were not
> broadcasting Scots any language, except Gaelic, but were broadcasting
> English Language. Furthermore you are wrong in your point that the BBC
> ignored English Dialects. Their longest running soap opera is actually
> still being broadcast and still uses English Dialect. It is, of course,
> "The Archers". In those days the were also broadcasting such as, "Mrs
> Dale's Diary", and a host of other English dialect programmes on the
> national networks. They did have, "The McFlannels", on the Home service
> but this used , "Scottish Standard English", with a Glasgow accent, rather
> than Lowland Scots. What is more it was only broadcast in Scotland while
> English dialects were broadcast on the whole network.
>
>> among themselves or were the language police out and about beating it
>> out of them?
>
> Yes it was beaten out of them in the schools and was frowned upon by the
> authorities, your daft reference to, "Language Police", is noted.
>
> In this era too we had the emergence of, "The would-be Toffs", in
> Scotland. These last manufactured for themselves the very laughable,
> "Moarningsaid", and, "Kelvainsaid", accents that were used to, "Elevait",
> "thaimsialves", above the common herd. Many were the slips between brains
> and lips made by these laughable factions. This was known amont the
> aforementioned common herd as, "Opening your tiny petallike mouth and
> puttin yer big fut in it". I actually heard this classic while on a tram
> car in Prince's Street, "It rained as the happy couple came from the Kirk
> and the groom very gallantly draped his clock over the bride;s shoulders".
> We had a geography teacher who, on failing to get an answer to a question,
> stamped her foot saying, "Children! Children! Ostend", and the whole class
> rose to its feet.
>
> However it is also noted that you say, "People in Scotland were of course
> still free to speak Scottish dialects". A tacit acknowledgement they were
> speaking dialects of Scots rather than English. perhaps?
> --
>
> Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
> Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
> Kelty,
> Fife,
> Scotland, (UK).
> Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
>
>
>>
>> Alan
>>
>
>
About that Scots language thing?
I came across this little snippet while looking for something else on the
net. It was a long standing advert on a wall around the Gilmerton area of
Edinburgh and read, 'walth o' straw, five bawbees a wunlin'.

I see some Scots in there but also some is a bit Anglified. The word,
"straw", sticks out as English rather than the more usual Scots usage of,
"Strae". Perhaps the process of Anglicisation that is still going on had an
influence then too. Off the top of my head I would translate the ad as,
"Plenty, (large quantity), of straw, tuppence-halfpenny a bundle". I am
assuming here that ,"Wundle", is the local usage of the more common,
"Windle".

Let's put it this way - that advert was on the walls of Edinburgh when the
Cable-trams ran to the Gilmerton Road area of the city and shows the
contemporary English of the day was not the norm for Edinburgers of that
time. Perhaps those who would have it that Scots is an English dialect would
care to show the English equivalents or those Scots words?
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The whole dialect business
    ... >> I just wish anyone claiming the Scots language is a dialect of English ... > northern English dialects they would come to the same conclusions as they ... Every kind of English dialect will often be heard on radio and TV. ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: Flora MacDonalds links to the present
    ... >the over-simplification of scottish history. ... >Culloden was not scots vs english or Catholics vs Protestants ... >the Highlands ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: (engelesh) Royals cost the taxpayer £37.4m
    ... WHY should scotland pay for an Engilish Queen? ... By parentage she is as much, if not more Scottish than English. ... Scots, ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)
  • Re: OT - New road bridge to be built over Forth - BBC News
    ... Public spending in Scotland is higher than in England by £1500 per ... On average, Scottish MPs represent ... this was a "bribe" to keep the Scots ... English and Scottish waters, ...
    (uk.railway)
  • Re: Did you know ? #1
    ... who due to circumstances was born in Scotland? ... supposed to prove anywa other than to confirm that Blair *is* Scottish. ... Scots has nothing to do with bloodline but is culture based. ... schooled there means to those from Edinburgh he is either English like his ...
    (soc.culture.scottish)