Re: Dracu - Ordogu
- From: Groovy Swing <groovy.swing@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 16:56:01 +0100
Care-i sursa?
† Prof. Dr. Ing. IPS Raspopitul wrote:
The following is a brief sketch of the common names for the devil in
Hungarian and sometimes in related or neighboring languages of the
past.
The main names for the devil in Hungarian is ördög, which in a more
archaic spelling was urdung. It appears to mean the "lord of the
dead". (Dög =carion, while Ur=lord). Today the term Dög is only used
Dubioasa inversare. Daca-i asa, ar fi trebuit sa puie dögör. La fel
dubioasa forma ör pt. ceea ce azi e úr [u:r]. (Am dubii ca ör are
semnificatia asta.)
The closest
associations with the word are found in Parthian, Manichean religion
where the "ertenk" word was used for the devil. The Scythian Parthians
came from north of Persia and conquered and ruled the Persian Empire
and the Near East for some 500 years.
Aici ar fi trebuit sa adauge ceva de baza: ca lexicul maghiar
fundamental (cel vechi) are un grup de cuvinte importante de
origine iranica - unele alane, altele persane - si ca insusi
cuvintul pt ''Dumnezeu'', I$ten, e iranic. (Si ca si vechii
Unguri au fost sub influenta zoroastrismului.)
The Turkic languages also used a
word somewhat similar in the name Erlik Khan, (d >l?) for the lord of
the dead. Even further back in time in ancient Mesopotamia the
Sumerians called the demons Udug, without the r. This same word was
borrowed by the Assyrians and Babylonians as "Utuk-ku". The Sumerian
term UD also meant a hollow, a hole in the ground similar to Hungarian
ODU, meaning a hole or hollow in a tree.
Cioaca cu Sumerienii pute a protocronism (chiar daca nexusul
ördög - erlik - udug - utukku - ud ar avea oarece baza reala).
BTW, ideea de ''vid'' si ''cavitate'' e redata pe ungureste de
cuvantul ür (ü:r) (scris ASCII de fapt asa, ûr, deoarece ü e
lung) "cosmos, spatiu" si derivarea üreg "cavitate; sinus".
KUL, GOLYHO
A variant of the name, using the other word for death, which meant
sickness, also in some related languages, is "Hal, holt" in Hungarian
is found among the linguistic relatives of the Hungarian language, the
Finno-Ugric languages as "KUL". Some FinnUgor languages call the chief
devil to be KUL-ATER. There is an insect that lives in the forest in
Europe which drops on your head and bores into your skull, causing
certain sicknesses. This is also called in Hungarian KUL-ancs while
another special type of demon or evil spirit is called GOLY-HO. This
same term for devil is also found in Sumerian, from ancient
Mesopotamia, as the "GAL-LU" demons, based on the word for death. Now
this word sounds quite similar also to the English - Scottish ghoul
name.
Mde. (In dictionarele obisnuite, kulancs si kur nu se afla.)
KUR, KÖRMÖCZ
In various FinnoUgrian languages however the term for devil was KUR,
which is a term found in Hungarian again in relationship to aging and
sickness and desease.
Iar pe nemteste inseamna "curä", adica ceea ce te scapa de
sickness si disease. :-)
In ancient Sumerian the kingdom of the
underworld also uses the term KUR, along with other descriptive
phrases. Like FinnUgor the Sumerian term KUR also can mean age/aged as
well as mountain. In one of the myths of creation the Sumerian God
nin_URTA > nim-urta >Nimrod, is sent to fight the evil giant KUR.
ÁRMÁNY
Another term for the devil, "the deceiver", in Hungarian is Ármány,
which is pronounced much like the Persian "Ariman" who was the brother
Ahriman.
of Ahura Mazda (wise lord), the god and of course both represented the
a.k.a. Ormuzd
prince of deceivers, the devil. In Hungarian ármány also means
"deceive, intrigue" as he was the great deceiver of men. Early
si adjectivul ármányo$ "insidious"
Hungarians had many contacts with the Near East and the Persians and
Scythians,
Aha, nu-i constient de dimensiunea iranica a natiunii maghiare:
prin (1) intermediul Alanilor a.k.a. Ia$ilor (a jászok) si (2)
prin intermediul turcilor onoguri (protobulgari, care erau patura
conducatoare a federatiei lui Arpad), turcilor kavari (hazari) =
cele trei triburi care li s'au alaturat in 896 si care erau
trupa razboinica de $oc, apoi turcii pecenegi, turcii cumani
si altii (intre care persanii turcizati din Horezm colonizati
prin Ardeal) - cu totii fiind in fond amestecuri de populatie
scita si populatie mai mult sau mai putin mongolida (uneori si
ugric-finica) turcofona. Inclusiv dimensiunea slava ucraineana,
slovaca si croata avea de asemeni "links" culturali si cromo-
zomiali catre scito-persani.
which is shown also by the early presence of the Hungarian
word for God
Isten de care pomenii mai sus.
also in Iran and Anatolian, Hittite.
In limba hittita au fost redactate primele texte ale unei
limbi indoeuropene (Hittitii aveau acu-s patru milenii
sistem de alimentare cu apa potabila prin conducte in
capitala lor Hattu$a, din care conducte unele sunt in stare
de functiune si astazi).
Yet this word is
even earlier than these in Mesopotamia where it meant primarily "one",
yet in Egypt it also was the title of the god of wisdom/scribes TOTH.
Seems weird but Hungarian TUD also means to know and awareness.
Mai degraba gaselnitze din categoria... coincidentze.
FENE
The lesser understood and known names and titles of various demons and
devils are often remembered in Hungarian as part of curses, which are
now often not well understood because their links are often forgotten
and are at times only know at times by their relationship to various
deseases or sicknesses, which they caused. One of these curses calls
on the demon Fene, which is often related by linguists to the biting
of a dog in FinnUgor
Spellingul asta denota ca autorul e ageamiu. Ugor se zice numai
pe ungureste.
languages, but in reality it is found also in
Turkic languages like the Uigurs where it means evil and is also one
of their demons.
Awright, si cum ii zice pe turca uigura?
[SNIP]
MANÓ
Another lesser known term for a devil of the underworld was "mano"
which also represented in Hungarian the dwarfs of the underworld, but
also at times troublesome devils. This term is probably one of those
very early words which were inherited from the Finno-Ugrian language
that Hungarian derives from.
Aha: autorul nu face parte dintre radicalii pt. care nu exista
origine fino-ugrica, ci numai sumeriana, scita si turca.
It is found in such expressions as "Mi a
mano?", meaning "what the devil" in English.
Oare sa fie vechi? Sau e o expresie totusi recenta si... slangy?
Avand in vedere ca manó in argou e varianta a lui manusz, care,
pe tziganeste, in toata Europa inseamna "om, barbat" si-i din
acelasi ou cu cuvintele engl. man, germane Mann, Mensch, idi$
Mentsch - cu echivalentele f. similare din idiomurile (nord-)indice.
The name is also found in
Finnish as man-ala = "under the earth" referring to the underground
kingdom of the dead and the devil. Here the term Ma=earth and
ala=under.
Dar oare e demonstrat ca manó are legatura etimologica cu finicul
manala?
MANI
There is also a totally different "mano" in Hungarian mythology which
was inherited from the Iranians, in the person of Mani, the founder of
the Manichean religion, which was once found from France to China. The
French Albigenses and the Bulgarian Bogomils were also neo-Manichean
religions.
Nu religii, ci curente in cadrul crestinismului!
According to an early Greek document, the Hungarian Árpád
ruler and the Magyar clan was also Manichean in religion.
Ce exprimare! Dar nu-i totuna sa fi tinut de credinta persana
ori sa fi fost crestin (sa zicem bogomil).
There are
some old Hungarian sayings which refer to the death of Mani, at the
hands of the Persians who skinned him alive and hung his carcas on a
tree as a warning against his followers. This act is found in the
Hungarian sayings about Mano.
Pai amandoua nu merg deodata: fin. manala si pers. Mano. S'apoi
sa fi devenit diavol un martir stimat?
DESEASES & DEVILS
The names of the lesser devils are often associated with diseases and
their names recall a remnant of a much earlier period when many of the
peoples of Asia and Europe practiced the shamanistic religions, which
tried to heal the body by chasing out the spirit of the sickness
causing disease, using various rites and loud exorcisms. There are
remnants of such customs in Hungary but there are also many facts
pointing to the fact that they were already eastern Christians before
they entered Central Europe from the east.
Unii da. Dar nu toti. Si cei care erau crestini erau... ortodoc$i.
Chiar si Stefan cel Sfant, care si-a silit supusii (incl. rudele
de gradul I) cu palo$ul sa se supuie Bisericii Romei fusese initial
botezat de preoti constantinopolitani.
Hungarian gyenge = weak, sickly
Uigur Turk jany
Cuman Turk yangi
Osman Turk yani
In dictionare turcesti am gasit multe sinonime, dar /iani/ si
/ianghi/ ioc. In schimb, un cuvant turcesc pentru "sick" e...
*fena*. (Coincidentza: unul dintre cuvintele turcesti pt.
"malady, disease, illness" e... *illet*.)
Sumerian gig' ( note the g can in Sumerian at times substitute for Y
while g' is often related to ng, and ny or gy in Hungarian)
Hungarian guta related to the idea of strike down, a stroke caused by
being very annoyed and upset.
Guta nu-i cuvant unguresc. Atat guta maghiara, cat si guta
romaneasca provin din latinescul gutta "picatura, strop".
(''Gutta cavat lapidem.'' = picatura "chinezeasca")
Hungarian mirigy, csoma, nyavalya
De nu s'o fi tragand nyavalya ("erizipel") din romanescul nevoia.
(In orice caz, olahii ardeleni au si vorba "calce-te nevoia!")
are also archaic names for diseases
as well as archaic demons. It is no coincidence that the common name
for a physician or doctor in Hungarian is Orvos, which can be traced
back to ancient times to mean a medicine man, or shaman.
DRUMO, DOROMO
Here is a case of a previous Mesopotamian god, who was later to become
another name for the devil in Hungary under Christianity. The term
comes from DARAMAH = great stag, and is a title of the Sumerian God of
land & water, civilization, shamanism, wisdom and a creator of
mankind. His other better known name is EN-KI, meaning "lord of
earth". He was the younger son of the god of heaven AN preceeded only
by EN-LIL, the lord of Air/Sky in importance.
Si care-i corespondentul acestor nume in maghiara?
Both Sumerian terms AN =from FinnUgor *sanke ( *s- >ø and nk>n) and
LIL from FinnUgor *lewle are also from the old FinnUgor
proto-language. In Hungarian these words changed according to the
unique Hungarian sound rules to _ÉG =sky ( *s- > ø, nk>g) and LÉL/LÉG
=air/atmosphere. The God En-KI uses the FinnUgor term KIL =place/town
in meaning rather than Sumerian KI=place/town/earth/land. Turkish also
has KIR=earth/land. In Sumerian Mythology EN-KI was the creator of man
and was the one god who truly helped and cared for man. Perhaps that
is why most Ural-Altaic and even other Shamans always call in prayer
with a word that sounds like EY, HEY. Enki's other name EA, HEA sounds
like this same common term which has survived even today in folk
dancing and folk music which is so steeped in ancient traditions that
these common phrases are now just traditional shouts of joy to most,
yet it was much more in the past. It is a term which was used also in
the past by the soldiers going off to battle as a battle cry, just as
it was by the American Indians war cryes.
Uff... :-)
HUNGARIAN WITCHES & WARLOCKS
Of the priests and priestesses who are often associated with the devil
today, two stand out. The priest of magic which today is associated
with black magic was called garabonciás in Hungarian. At times he was
a student in some "college" and studied his black arts there. Yet this
association was probably more from European influence since the term
comes from the east from the term Karapan or Karaban. (note Kara=black
in Turkic) Originally he wasn't just the practitioner of black magic
but dealt with magic related to controlling the weather and in
predicting the future. References to such priests in the Inquisition
trials of men famous for this art often denied making weather changes
and just admitted to making predictions.
[SNIP]
.
- References:
- Dracu - Ordogu
- From: † Prof. Dr. Ing. IPS Raspopitul
- Dracu - Ordogu
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