Re: Poland and Germany
- From: "pleva" <pleva@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:20:48 -0400
te, idiota! Z zimna gnic nie mozesz? Nasyp se durniu wegla do wora - na plecy
brzydki skurwysynu - i lataj az sie zmeczysz i spocisz glupcze. Moze zasniesz
umejska idioto?
"brat_olin" <brat_olin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:dj4304$l4h$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
: Nice summary, Mr. Kamyk. Thanks!
:
: P.S. Yalta was in 1945
: L.
:
: "kamyk1112" <kamyk1112@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
: news:1129680409.470338.57290@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
: poettchen napisal(a):
: > I consider the ongoing conflict between Germany and Poland a major
: > threat to the European unification process.
: >
: > The main problem is that there is widespread believe on both sides to
: > be the innocent victim, and for the other side to be the evil
: > perpetrator.
: >
: > The reason why such a strange situation could emerge is that there
: > remain open issues, and more importantly millions of victims on both
: > sides.
: >
: > Schröder and Kwasniewski want to solve the problem by rejecting German
: > and Polish demands for compensation. However by doing so they do the
: > opposite.
: >
: > The hard facts:
: >
: > 1. Between 1939 and 1945 millions of Poles, many of them Jews, became
: > the innocent victims of mass murder, expulsions, hunger, misstreatment,
: > bombing terror, as a result of Nazi German warfare and occupation.
: > Indirectly Nazi occupation also lead to 45 years of communism.
: >
: > 2. In 1945 millions of eqully innocent Germans were forcibly expelled
: > from their century old homeland, loosing not only property, but also
: > their heritage and identity.
: >
: > Fact: Both issues cannot be surpressed by politicians. They have to be
: > solved.
: >
:
: I am sorry for using harsh words, but presenting these two issues
: together without further comment is unfair. I am aware that,
: unfortunately, virtually all German newspapers tend to compare these
: two events as if they were symmetric. I want to believe that the reason
: for doing that is ignorance, rather than ill-will.
:
: Your letter deals with the subject of compensation. Compensation is
: inevitably related with the notion of guilt, in the way that those who
: compensate should be 'guilty' of doing something wrong. As for guilt,
: however, it's quite a difficult concept, disserted by many notable
: thinkers, but for this purpose I'll quote the definition of the
: philosopher Father Tischner: "in order to be guilty of some evil, one
: should have been objectively able to prevent that evil from happening".
:
: Let's take your first point. The responsibility (which in this context
: is the same as guilt) of the Germans for the suffering inflicted on the
: nations of Europe during WW2 has been discussed for decades. Several
: points stand out:
:
: 1. The Germans supported Hitler when his politics brought material
: gains.
: 2. Hitler and the Nazis where astoundingly clear about their racism,
: and the treatment of other nations as inferior (and especially Jews and
: Poles as subhuman). Imprisonment of people of these races was publicly
: announced in the press and through loudspeakers.
: 3. Plans to conquer foreign states for the sole purpose of "lebensraum"
: for the German nation were unashamedly announced.
: 4. In the later stages of the war, the Gauleiters deliberately talked
: openly about their murder policies, in order to share the guilt with
: the citizens and increase the fervor with which ordinary Germans were
: to defend the III Reisch for the fear of revenge.
: 5. Active underground opposition to the Nazis among the Germans was
: absolutely minimal and insignificant.
:
: Whereas it is difficult the assess the responsibility of a single
: individual, in the face of the points above, the German state should
: indeed in my opinion be held responsible for the crimes of the Nazis.
:
: Now let's take the second point. Firstly, it is, in my opinion,
: absolutely outrageous, that so many times the German press, and you
: here as well, limit the issue of the great post-ww2 expulsions to the
: Germans. It is a manipulation. The expulsion of Germans cannot be
: separated from the expulsions of other nations, because these
: operations had the very same roots, were performed by the same army
: command and were coordinated.
:
: It was Joseph Stalin that wanted 2/3 of the territory of pre-war Poland
: to be incorporated into the Soviet Union. He perceived the territory of
: pre-war eastern Poland as the "near border", over which the Soviet
: Russia should possess total control. It was his idea, that some parts
: of Germany should be given to Poland. Officially, he called that a
: "compensation" to Poland for the lost Eastern lands. However, taking
: into account his attitude to Polish people (shooting of tens of
: thousands of Polish captive officers, the Warsaw Rising, the murder
: activities of the NKVD, etc.), it's unlikely that he was so
: particularly keen on helping Poland. He probably wanted to:
:
: 1. destroy East Prussia, which he saw as a potential threat in the
: future
: 2. as for Pomerania and Silesia, he wanted to have more control over
: more land, and he was aware that he would have more control over Poland
: than over Germany, the status of which was still unresolved.
:
: He had earlier cut the relations with the legal Polish government in
: exile in London. He didnt discuss these issues with the Polish
: representatives. He proposed these ideas directly and secretely to
: Churchill and Roosevelt in Teheran in 1943, and both agreed to them.
: Churchill told the Polish PM about the plans, but neither he or
: Roosevelt told the Polish PM, that these issues had been secretly
: settled (Roosevelt even later in Washington blatantly lied to the
: Polish PM, that 'your country would emerge undiminished').
:
: When the Polish PM wanted to discuss the issue of the borders with
: Stalin and Molotov at Yalta in 1949, Stalin is said to have looked at
: Churchill with surprise and said "didnt we settle these issues at
: Teheran in 1943?". Churchill nodded. The Polish PM was shocked. He left
: the conference. He flew directly to London to the rest of the
: government to inform them of the news.
:
: The Polish government by that time had been totally marginalized. In
: Potsdam, Roosevelt and Churchill signed a treaty:
:
: "The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its
: aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations,
: or elements thereof, remaining in Poland, Czechoslovakia and Hungary,
: will have to be undertaken. They agree that any transfers that take
: place should be effected in an orderly and humane manner."
:
: Churchill was also of the opinion, that minorities cause endless
: trouble, and that the population movements, when conducted in an
: orderly and humane manner, would help prevent later conflicts.
:
: Obviously, the Polish government was not one of the signatories. Some
: say that the long opposition of the Polish government to mass border
: changes was the primary reason for the government's eventual
: marginalization. The Polish PM was a man of moderation and he accepted
: that 'some' border changes were unevitable. But no negotiations took
: place: Churchill and Roosevelt had accepted Stalin's demands in full.
: The Polish government was opposed to that option for a reason: it meant
: that 1/3rd of the Polish population would have to be deported from its
: eastern lands, into completely new lands, from which the Germans were
: to be deported. The eastern lands (the 'Kresy', or 'Borderlands') were
: an important cultural area for Poles: actually most of the Polish
: writers and poets came from the Kresy. PM Mikolajczyk despised of these
: mass population movements and he was a man of the highest moral
: standards.
:
: The underground army lead by the Polish legal government, the so-called
: Home Army, was officially dismantled soon after. It did not take part
: in the expulsions. The NKVD and the Soviet authorities hunted and
: persecuted Home Army soldiers. Some of Home Army leaders were executed
: in a show trial in Moscow.
:
: Stalin provided its own puppet government in Poland, which was totally
: (yes, totally) obedient to him. The support for this government in
: Poland was very small.
:
: Stalin also provided a new "Polish" army, over which he had total
: control. The army consisted of ethnic Poles, but was fully under the
: command of Stalin.
:
: Large population movements took place: the Poles were forcibly deported
: from the vast 'Kresy' in cattle trains. The Red Army controlled the
: expulsions. The Germans from Silesia, Pomerania, Mazuria and Warmia
: were also expelled. In East Prussia, the Red Army conducted the
: expulsions (in many occasions also slaughters). In Silesia and
: Pomerania, the Soviet-run "Polish" army conducted the expulsions. The
: Ukrainians (the 'Lemks')from the Polish side of the border were
: deported either to Ukraine, or to the northern part of East Prussia --
: mostly by the Soviet-run "Polish" army. There was a population swap
: between Slovakia and Hungary. All these countries were to become
: ethnically homogenous.
:
: Now, the point is, that if you want a due comparison to the expulsion
: of Germans, the obvious, symmetric comparison is the expulsion of
: Poles, not the Nazi crimes:
:
: 1. Both Poles and Germans were migrating to the East since the late
: Middle Ages.
: 2. Both were dominant culturally in these areas.
: 3. In the German eastern areas, the Germans usually inhabited the
: cities, whereas the Poles the villages. In the Polish eastern lands,
: the Poles usually inhabited the cities, whereas Ukrainians, Lithuanians
: and Belorussians the villages. This is also a symmetric situation.
: 4. The Germans from Silesia/Pomerania/East Prussia formed distinct
: cultures. The Poles from the Kresy also formed a distinct culture
: (perhaps actually the richest, most prolific Polish culture).
: 5. All were expelled as a result of Poland's border changes after WW2,
: planned by Stalin, executed by Stalin-run armies.
:
: There is one difference: the Poles were expelled to a Communist
: Country. The Germans, to the Free World. Many Poles envied the Germans
: their fate.
:
: Now, can the Poles take the _guilt_ for these expulsions? Well, aside
: from the Red Army in East Prussia, ethnic Poles from the Soviet-run
: "Polish" army also conducted them, indeed, some willingly, some not.
: But these efforts was merely carrying out orders on the ground level.
: Some Polish civilians also joined in the effort, willingly. Some helped
: some Germans hide. But all of them were merely reacting to what was
: happening anyway. No Polish representative took part in
: decision-making.
:
: Can the Polish puppet Communist government that coordinated the process
: on the ground be compared to the Nazi government? IMO, it cannot. The
: support for the government was very small. It was imposed and fully
: controlled from the outside. The population and the legal Polish
: government in London certainly would have preferred no border changes
: in the first place and thus no expulsions. Obviously, the Poles, those
: who survived, wanted to come back to their own homes -- and the border
: changes prevented that. The expelled Germans couldnt come back to their
: own homes either.
:
: For this reason, it seems to me that comparing the Nazi German crimes
: to the expulsion of Germans from Poland is unfair. Firstly, the
: expulsions of Germans cannot be viewed as a separate event. The only
: fair way to refer to it is the massive population movements of 3
: population groups (Poles, Germans, Ukrainians) that were the result of
: Poland's border changes. It was one operation.
:
: Secondly, let's recall our definition of guilt. "In order to be guilty
: of some evil, one should have been objectively able to prevent that
: evil from happening". This will be the most important point.
:
: For the Nazi German crimes no foreign power is responsible. The German
: state itself and only it can be help responsible. HOWEVER, the most of
: the reponsibility for the expulsions of ethnic populations in and
: around Poland should be held by a foreign power, the Soviet Union.
: Stalin had the most means to 'prevent' them from happening -- he
: planned and executed them. But Stalin shares the guilt with others.
: Churchill and Roosevelt can also be held responsible to some extent, as
: they could have perhaps done something to prevent them. But their means
: to prevent the expulsions were limited. The guilt of the Poles is even
: smaller.
:
: The only, proportionally small, guilt, that can be held by the Poles
: for this operation is for the Polish civilians that willingly
: participated in expulsions of Germans and Ukrainians. However, these
: ppl couldnt have prevented the expulsions on the massive scale -- we
: can hold the Poles responsible only for some specific acts of violence,
: for example. They were usually those who themselves didnt have a
: choice: they had been forcibly taken away from home to some new lands
: and were told that they should find a new home for themselves. So they
: helped in expelling the Germans. One could say it was immoral of them
: anyway. However, ppl who thought that way cannot be held responsible
: for these events, as they couldnt have prevented them. Some limited
: responsibility falls on the soldiers of the Soviet-run "Polish" army,
: but their objective means to prevent the expulsions were very small.
: Also, take into account that some Polish civilians also hid Germans.
: Most importantly, the Polish government was actually the only Allied
: government to have opposed all the mass border changes that created the
: problem of expulsions. The Polish government did all that was possible
: to prevent the border changes. It thus cannot be help responsible for
: these changes and the expulsions that followed. The Poles were massive
: victims of the very same operation of expulsions.
:
: In summary, listing the Nazi crimes on Poles next to the expulsion of
: Germans from Poland is a manipulation, because it omits that:
: 1. the Poles were expelled as a part of the same operation of
: expulsions
: 2. the expulsions were ordered by Stalin, Churchill and Roosevelt
: against the will of the Polish legal government and the expelled Poles.
:
: However, there is no parallel to the Nazi German crimes on Polish
: people. The only event that perhaps could be compared is the massacre
: of several hundred Jews in Jedwabne in 1943. However, this is really
: incomparable to the Nazi crimes, because it was not condoned by the
: state, and because of the numbers.
:
:
: Now, let's come to the issue of compensation:
:
: >
: > The solution to the problem is quite simple, and the legal framework
: > alsready exists.
: >
: > The key to solving both issues lies in current legislation and
: > international treaties
: >
: > 1. Germany has to financially compensate those Germans expelled for
: > lost property. Post War agreements make Germany, as the perpetrator of
: > the War responsible for compensation. As Germans in the former East of
: > the country were in no way more responsible for Nazism than those
: > living in the West it is only just that German tax payers money is
: > used.
: >
:
: And here you ignore the most important analogy. The expulsion of Poles.
: Well, in mid-nineties the Polish government has unilaterally obliged
: Poland to pay compensation to the Poles who were expelled from the lost
: Polish territories. Russia was NOT asked to pay for that. That is
: unfair, of course, but it was done in the name of good relations with
: Russia.
:
: Why the Germans havent done that?
:
: Secondly, why the Germans blame the expulsions of Polish people? Their
: guilt is certainly smaller than USA's, Britain's and, obviously
: Russia's, because it was the governments of these three countries that
: had objective means to prevent these expulsions.
:
: > 2. Germany and Poland have to compensate Poles who suffered in the War.
: > Poland received German territory as compensation already. I suggest a
: > 50/50 split. This is a key issue to ensure that Polish vicitms are not
: > forgotten.
: >
:
: Holy mother of God! Are you serious! 50/50 split? Why didnt you propose
: the same deal to Israel. Israeli concetration camp inmates received
: millions of dollars in compensation back in the 50's. (Polish inmates
: receveived nothing so far). Germany has paid reparations to France,
: Britain and the USA, even though the damage inflicted on them was
: infinitely smaller to the damage inflicted on Poland. Germany paid
: reparations to America until 2000! Why do you propose double-standards?
:
: Actually, Germany is using double-standards even now. I understand that
: the West German government didnt pay anything to Poland because
: Americans didnt want money transfer to the other side of the Iron
: Curtain. But why is there absolutely no feeling in Germany today, that
: this unfairness should be repaired now? I've read absolutely nothing of
: a hint of a guilt for this situation in any German press. Why Poland
: shouldnt receive the same as France, Britain and the USA
: _proportionally_ to the damage inflicted on Poland (so much more)? Why
: the double-standards? If the answer is "because it would be too much",
: then it should be the German side that should ask the Polish side to
: renounce the reparations. Nothing of the sort took place. No one says
: "it was wrong, unfair and unjust that you didnt receive anything. But
: we ask you to renounce reparations, because we cant afford them." If
: the answer is "because it is too late", then the German leaders, and
: the German press should at least openly say that "it was wrong, unfair
: and unjust that Poland didnt receive reparations whereas the USA,
: France, Britain or Israel did". However, I read nothing of this sort.
: All I hear is that Poland is 'nationalistic' in wanting reparations and
: that "Germany has already paid a lot!" (but to other countries).
:
: If you want to know my personal opinion, I think that, unfortunately,
: in Germany, the feeling that the Poles, Czechs and Ukrainians are
: somewhat inferior to Germany's western neighbours and deserve less is
: still very much alive.
:
: > 3. Poland has to provide cultural compensation in the form of bilingual
: > signage (topography) in formerly German speaking territory. This is key
: > issue among expelled Germans and very just as it is also very much in
: > the European spirit. The bilingual German/Sorb speaking Lusatia in
: > Germany can serve as an example in this regard. There Sorbs only make
: > up 4% of the population, still the entire region is officially
: > bilingual. There will be strong resistance on this issue by some Polish
: > nationalists, but the "Charta for Regional and Minority Languages" of
: > the Council of Europe states that "linguistic heritage has to be
: > protected" anyway. It is also in the interest of Poland to ensure the
: > future protection of Polish heritage in the Ukraine and Belarus when
: > these countries will eventually join the EU.
: >
:
: It's a different matter. The Sorbs are a tiny, insignificant ethnic
: group of a few hundred people facing total wipe-out by a neighbour of
: 80 million. If not for bi-lingualism, the Sorbian language and culture
: would be dead. Among the Sorbs there is a fear that young sorbs would
: become fully germanized and the sorbian culture would be lost. Any fear
: that Germany would become fully sorbianized and the German culture lost
: would be ridiculous. Not even any sort of 'mixture' is possible,
: because of the huge difference in the numbers.
:
: In case of the Germans and Poland, the situation is completely
: different. The German language is not facing extinction. If anything,
: it's more popular and Germany is stronger economically than Poland. If
: anything, we are observing brain-drain from Poland to Germany, not from
: Germany to Poland. With the borders open, and the huge economic gap,
: the Polish culture is facing a greater challenge of preservation in
: these areas than the German culture. I dont see any rational reason for
: preserving the German language and culture through such special means.
:
: However, If we were to follow historical borders, than let me remind
: you that in the Middle Ages the Kingdom of Poland reached to the river
: Leba/Elbe. Shouldnt we then enact bi-lingualism from Odra/Oder to
: Leba/Elba? In Europe, borders changed a lot. Introducing bilingualism
: in all such areas would be ridiculous.
:
: Let me remind you, that the German minority in Poland has a lot of
: privileges: 2 seats in the parliament are guaranteed for it, the Polish
: government co-funds bi-lingual schools, etc. No symmetric privileges
: exists for the Polish minority in Germany. Even though actually the
: agreements between the Polish and German governments oblige the German
: government to co-fund Polish-language schools, the German government
: still doesnt do that, a fact which from time to time is reminded by the
: Polish press (btw, I've never seen any German paper writing about
: that). Quite the opposite: Polish people are not allowed to work in
: Germany, whereas, for example all Jewish people are allowed to freely
: settle in Germany as a compensation for World-War-2. Polish companies
: frequently face discrimination in Germany, even to the point of
: detaining employees, cuffing them to the chair and threatening with
: dogs (refer to the report of the Polish Comittee of European
: Integration on discrimination of Polish companies within the EU).
:
: Until Germany fulfills its own obligations to the Polish minority in
: Germany i see no reason to provide even more privileges to the German
: minority in Poland.
:
: Kamyk
:
:
:
.
- References:
- Poland and Germany
- From: poettchen
- Re: Poland and Germany
- From: kamyk1112
- Re: Poland and Germany
- From: brat_olin
- Poland and Germany
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