Re: Same sex marriage?

biermartin wrote:

> Ekko Dieleman wrote:
>
> > > Hieronder nog een paar verheffende kwoots betreffende het
> > > huwelijk uit die King James Version, speciaal dus voor
> > > creationist Fustigator om het weekend mee door te komen.
>
> > > 1 Sam.18:25-27 "And Saul said, Thus shall ye say to David, The
> > > king desireth not any dowry, but an hundred foreskins of the
> > > Philistines.... And when his servants told David these words, it
> > > pleased David well.... Wherefore David arose and went, he and his
> > > men, and slew of the Philistines two hundred men; and David
> > > brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full tale to the
> > > king, that he might be the king's son in law. And Saul gave him
> > > Michal his daughter to wife."
>
> > This quote is taken of its context as usual. 1 Sam. 18 handles about
> > the relationship between king Saul of Israel and David. Saul
> > promised to give his oldest daughter to David as his wife if he
> > would fight the king's fight. But when David was fighting this
> > daughter was sent off to marry another man. Saul was afraid of
> > Daivid but want to keep him close so he could keep an eye on him
> > luckily his other daughter, Michal fell in love with David and Saul
> > promised David he could marry her if he would bring him those
> > foreskins of the Philistines. David reluctantly went out to do this
> > and got married to the king's daughter and became Saul's son in law.
>
> What do you mean that I quoted out of context? My quotes are literal.
> You tell the story again, but there is nothing in your story to
> contradict anything in my quotes.

Your quotes are literal allright, but to understand them fully you have
to read the chapter they have been taken out of. It's like you said
yourself in another reply: selective literacy is hypocritical.
>
> It is clear here that marriage is simply a deal between heads of
> families or clan leaders to forge alliances. Those who are getting
> married have generally nothing to say about who they marry. In the
> Old Testament marriage is nothing but a cattle market. God doesn't
> only condone it, he is even instrumental in all of this cattle trade.
> I am glad I live in another time and, sorry, this is not a God that I
> want to have anything whatsoever to do with.

You're right if you say that all marriages in those days were arranged
and God was instrumentalin all of this. I think in all his He thought
about the big picture, as He stands outside time so He can oversee the
consequences of letting marriages be arranged on the fate of whole
poulation over a timespan of a several generations.
>
> > > Hosea 1:2 " And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife
> > > of whoredoms and children of whoredoms."
>
> > Out of context again. The three kids the whore Gomer bare the
> > prophet Hosea were meant to be a lesson to the people of Isael in
> > which whoredom was rampant.
>
> Your "context" had nothing to do with the essence of it. And the
> essence is that the LORD is giving orders here.

You're right. I don't know why He did this, but for me this isn't a
reason to let go of my faith.
>
> > > Hosea 3:1-2 "Then said the LORD unto me, Go yet, love a woman
> > > beloved of her friend, yet an adulteress.... So I bought her to
> > > me for fifteen pieces of silver, and for an homer of barley, and
> > > an half homer of barley."
>
> > Taken out of its context once again. In this chapter Hosea
> > symbolically remarries his adultreous wife to set an example.
>
> What context?!?!? Again the LORD is giving unambiguous orders.
> "Symbolically remarries" ?!?!? There is nothing symbolically about
> it. Again it is divinely ordered cattle trade.

Hosea was already married to his wife and he was a prophet and as such
he was obliged to follow the Lord's orders for the good of the whole of
the people f Israel.
>
> > Keil & Delitzsch's Commentary on the Old Testament explain it like
> > this:
> >
> > <quote>
> > "The significant pair are introduced again, but with a fresh
> > application." In a second symbolical marriage, the prophet sets
> > forth the faithful, but for that very reason chastising and
> > reforming, love of the Lord to rebellious and adulterous Israel. By
> > the command of God he takes a wife, who lives in continued
> > adultery, notwithstanding his faithful love, and places her in a
> > position in which she is obliged to renounce her lovers, that he
> > may thus lead her to return. Hos_3:1-3 contain the symbolical
> > action; Hos_3:4, Hos_3:5 the explanation, with an announcement of
> > the reformation which this proceeding is intended to effect.
> > </quote>
>
> This verbal ectoplasm is too far out to warrant a serious response.
>
> > > Aren't christian values wonderful?!?!?!?
>
> > Yes they are, but you try to ridicule them by taking quotes from the
> > Old Testament out of their context and judge Chrisianity with them.
>
> I quote the Lord's orders literally and there is nothing ambiguous
> about it. Your only response is that I quote "out of context." But
> then it turns out you have nothing substantial to add to either the
> quote or the context.

I do find it substantial but you're entitled to think otherwise. I
think none of the two of us can "win" this discussion. We disagree
fundamentally and we can't convince each other of our viewpoints. So I
suggest we agree to disagree. I know it's is a bit of cheap escape to
call for this, but we can go on for ever but it won't lead us anywhere.
It's like a game of chess in neither of the two players can win.

Ekko
--

.

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