Re: The French Issue
- From: Pan <panNOTRASH@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 11:57:41 GMT
On Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:05:18 +0800, "adchin" <adchin@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
><< Map of main flashpoints
>
>The nightly protests have gripped deprived areas with large African and Arab
>communities where unemployment is rife and residents complain of racism and
>discrimination. >>
>
>I copied this off another earlier posting. Now, assuming that this is the
>problem, then why did the Africans and Arabs leave their own country in the
>first place. Probably because unemplyment and racism and discrimination,
>was also rife, back home. If things were all rosy and good, and their
>previous homeland could feed them even if they were lazy and stupid, then
>there should't be any reason for them, wanting to leave in the first place.
AD, the young rioters (or at least many of them) are as French as you
are Malaysian and I am American. They aren't immigrants (alright,
perhaps a few were born in Algeria and moved to France when they were
4 or whatever). And the older folks who did immigrate aren't involved
with the violence.
>Did somewhere along the lines of immigration, did these bloody Africans and
>Arabs think that French society owed them a living and money ?
There's neither justification nor excuse for rioting. That said, this
didn't come out of a vacuum. Consider that there is a history of
police brutality toward Arab-French youth and a largely unacknowledged
history of discrimination in education and employment.The picture I'm
getting is that the people rioting are some of those living in
ghettos, not the members of the community who are doing well in more
integrated communities. As an American, I can relate to this by
looking at places where members of the African-American community
rioted. The two communities face(d) similar problems. The French
government tends to pretend that everyone is French and there's no
discrimination, but many French citizens aren't really considered
French by a large number of their fellow citizens, because of their
religion and the place where their ancestors came from. Sound
familiar?
>The second issue that I wish to highlight, more to solve my own curiosity
>than anything else. Are these immigrants considered French citizen now, but
>of African and Arab descend ? If they are considered French citizens, then
>they have the whole of the EU to wander and search for gainful and
>meaningful employment.
That's true, but immigrants from Muslim countries and their
descendants face similar problems throughout much of Europe. Besides,
French youths speak French, not German, English, or Spanish.
>In my opinion, the Arabs and Africans are to blame, for their own problem,
>but this being human nature, are putting the blame onto society, and so, is
>venting their frustrations by causing billions of damage, while not actually
>elevating their condition, since they have already swept the possible
>reasons of their current predicament, under the carpet, when they took to
>the streets
You're being simpleminded. As I said, there's no excuse or
justification for rioting, and the riots presumably will most of all
cause lasting damage to the banlieus where they live. That was
certainly true of the riots in black ghettos in the U.S. But if you
think that there's no problem with the way Muslim Arabs have been
treated in France, you just don't know. I've known Algerian-French and
Tunisian-French folks and have heard various things from them, so I at
least know a little about the context.
>France is in the shape it is in, for the last 12 days, is because it was too
>nice to these bloody immigrants.
"These bloody immigrants" were French citizens when Algeria et al.
were departements as fully incorporated into France politically as Ile
de France. It's a tribute to the French that they were less racist
than the British and didn't try to bar entry to citizens after a
bloody war in Algeria. France has integrated many communities well,
including to at least some extent Muslims from Sub-Saharan Francophone
countries like Cote d'Ivoire (Ivory Coast), Senegal, and Cameroon, but
there is a lot of prejudice against Arabs, probably in large part
because of enduring bitterness over the loss of France's North African
territories.
> Let in the pariah people, and let them
>procreate, you will end up with a large good for nothing population. It's
>as simple as that.
No, it isn't as simple as that.
> I hope this will become a good lesson to the developed
>nations in the future, to be really selective in their immigration policies.
How would the British economy be doing if their immigration policy had
opened their doors to all British subjects from Hong Kong?
>If the French really wanted cheap labor, they could have always brought in
>Vietnamese or Bangla workers, like what we do here.
There are many Vietnamese-French people, and that community has been
integrated well, it seems to me.
> I am sure these foreign
>labor would love to live here and become our citizens, but our laws are
>strict enough to prevent them from doing so, except for the Indonesians,
>because, we do really owe them a great debt. If not the them, we would not
>have so many empty skyscrapers and stalled construction projects today.
So keep that in mind.
But realize that what you're doing is in essence calling for the
deportation of citizens and justifying odious racist policies like
Australia's former "White Australia" policy and the restrictive quotas
the United States used to drastically limit immigration by non-whites
before 1965. I don't see where allying yourself with Pauline Hanson
and fascist and neo-Nazi parties in Europe benefits you.
Michael
If you would like to send a private email to me, please take out the NOTRASH. Please do not email me something which you also posted.
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