Rabbi Meir Kahane interview "G-d's law..."

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• From: "jameshanley39@xxxxxxxxxxx" <jameshanley39@xxxxxxxxxxx>
• Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2008 18:53:32 -0700 (PDT)

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http://www.kahane.org/meir/interview.htm

Israel's Ayatollahs:
Meir Kahane and the Far Right in Israel.
By Raphael Mergui and Philippe Simonnot
Scanned and edited by Avraham Eliav

(Atlantic Highlands, NJ: Saqi Books, 1987)
First published in French in 1985 as: Meir Kahane: le rabbin qui fait
peur aux juifs.

Chapter 2

G~d's Law: an Interview with Rabbi Meir Kahane


Question: Rabbi Meir Kahane, you have been politically active for many
years, but only in 1984 were you able to win a seat in the Knesset.
Compared to your objectives, is this not rather a disappointing
result?

Answer: Tens of thousands would have liked to vote for me. If they
didn't, it's either because they were afraid to, or because they
thought that I had no chance of winning. But at the next elections, it
would be a mistake to think that I'll only have four seats. I'll have
double that.
From the start we have addressed ourselves to the Sephardic Jews.
These people have lived among the Arabs. They know what Arabs are.
They have no racist complexes. And they tell themselves that I know
how to deal with their problems. The next time, every young Sephardi,
especially those living in the development towns, will vote for
Kahane.


Q: But people say that the young Sephardis, since they come from Arab
countries, know nothing about democracy. That they are backward. And
your success will depend on the votes of these backward people!

A: This is an arrogant comment, typical of European intellectuals.
This really is nothing but intellectualism. The Sephardic Jew is an
intelligent Jew. Thank G~d, the Sephardis are not spoiled by European
culture. Thank G~d! They have not been corrupted by the teachings of
college professors.


Q: But aren't they Arabic, in culture?

A: The Sephardis came to this country with a culture, which is
Judaism. But here their family structures have been shattered; their
morale has been destroyed. Theirs is not an Arab culture. It's a true
Jewish culture. So, when a Sephardi says that he is against Western
democracy, he knows what he is talking about.


Q: How do you see Western democracy?

A: First I'm going to give you a bit of background, to help you
understand. Among all the controversy surrounding Kahane you'll not
find anybody prepared to take up the challenge that I have thrown
down. Since people are not capable of debating, they attack me by
putting labels on me. The first thing I want to say is that I couldn't
care less what they call me, and that's what makes them so mad. The
Left has always acted that way when they want to attack the Right. The
problem is that these people don't know how to debate. Let's get to
the point. First you must understand that Zionism and Western
democracy are at odds. And according to Zionism, this country must be
a Jewish state.


Q: What exactly is a Jewish state?

A: A Jewish state means that, at a minimum, there must be a majority
of Jews; a Jewish sovereignty with the power to make our own laws.
This is why Jews have left Europe and have come here. If we were now
to apply to the letter the principles of Western democracy, we would
have to agree that decisions are to be made by a majority. It's at
this point that I ask a question that sends Israelis crazy, both on
the Left and on the Right. The question is as follows: if the Arabs
settle among us and make enough children to become a majority, will
Israel continue to be a Jewish state? Do we have to accept that the
Arab majority will decide? Obviously, nobody in Israel can accept
this. Because to accept this would amount to being anti-Zionist!


Q: Would you accept a situation in which there was democracy only for
the Jews and not for the Arabs?

A: I'll answer that question later. First let me explain why everybody
is mad at me. It's because I have confronted people with the following
contradiction: you can't have Zionism and democracy at the same time.
And for those who criticize me, it's very difficult to get out of this
contradiction.
Now let me answer your question. First of all, Western democracy has
to be ruled out. For me that's cut and dried: there's no question of
setting up democracy in Israel, because democracy means equal rights
for all, irrespective of racial or religious origins. Therefore
democracy and Zionism cannot go together. And Israel's Declaration of
Independence, which proclaimed this state to be a Jewish state, is a
totally schizophrenic document. You just can't, on the one hand, want
a Jewish state and at the same time give non-Jews the right to become
a majority. When Abba Eban makes beautiful speeches in twelve
languages and starts talking about Jewish democracy-what on earth does
that mean, Jewish democracy?
Let's get back to your question and let me talk about democracy as far
as Jews are concerned. Do I accept democracy for Judaism? My answer
is: Judaism does not accept democracy unless it is within a structure
that adheres to the law of the Torah. I challenge any rabbi to
contradict me on this. My hope as a religious Jew, which is the hope
of every sincere and religious Jew, is to have a state governed by the
Torah. If one accepts the commandments of the Torah, then democracy is
conceivable within the framework of those commandments. Of course,
nobody could vote against these commandments. Nobody could question
the fact that the government has to abide by the Torah. There is no
question of letting people vote for or against the commandments of the
Torah. This can't be decided by a vote. However, if this objective
cannot be reached without having a civil war in Israel, then I'd give
it up. Therefore I hope that we'll be able to convince a majority of
Jews to create a state governed by the Torah, and that the minority
will accept it. And then, if that means voting in elections every four
years so as to have a government in compliance with the Torah, of
course I'd accept it. But I can't say that I'd be pleased with it.


Q: Concretely, what kind of constitution would this state have?

A: Who says that a state must have a constitution?


Q: All right then, let's talk about institutions.

A: In a state governed by the Torah, there must be a king, or if not a
king, then a president. But the supreme authority must lie with a
rabbinic court. The supreme laws of the country must be established by
that court. I guess there could also be a parliament to take care of
certain things, such as the army, or prisons. If the rules concerning
the army or the prisons are not contrary to the Torah, there would be
no problem.
However, obviously, the supreme law is the Halacha and it must be
interpreted by the Supreme Rabbinic Court, which is the Sanhedrin.
Applying the Halacha would entail great differences with the present
situation. Respect-ing the Sabbath, for example, would be compulsory.
All driving around in cars would be banned on the Sabbath. Obviously,
you wouldn't have a secret police force going round to people's homes
to check whether they eat kosher food or not. But kosher food would
have to be compulsory in all public places such as restaurants.
And that leads me to the second thing that drives my opponents crazy.
The biggest racist is the Jew who doesn't see that to be a Jew is
something special. When I say that I am a Jew, it means that I accept
that there is a wall separating Jews and non-Jews. It's a terrible
thing to create a wall between people-between Jews and non-Jews in
this case. But this is conceivable when there are reasons to be Jewish
and to want to live one's Jewishness. But for a secular Zionist, what
reasons could he have, other than a point of view that is basically
racist?
No secular Zionist in this country can quietly sit down and listen to
his son telling him: 'Dad, I've met a great girl...' If that woman is
not Jewish, no secular Zionist is going to tell him: 'Son, don't marry
her.' He would be called a racist pig. But under these conditions,
what's going to become of us? There would no longer be any reason to
be Jewish. The only thing that distinguishes us from non-Jews is that
we have the Torah. That's all. We are not superior to others. The
Chinese are intelligent too. There are stupid Jews. There are
intelligent Jews. Other peoples may also have their Einstein. The
biggest racism would be to create a Jewish state that isn't Jewish,
that has no reason for being. Without that reason of being Jewish, why
create a Jewish state? Without that reason, why be a Jew and not just
a human being?
I believe that there is a G~d and that this G~d led us into Sinai and
revealed the Truth to us. This is the reason that makes one a Jew.


Q: This state ruled by the Torah would not guarantee freedom of
speech, then?

A: Of course not! In a religious state, there can be no such freedom.
Obviously, I think that today it is not possible for us to have such a
state without a civil war, and I'm not prepared to encourage such a
conflict. What I am ready for, though, is to tell my voters that I
want a religious state. And if the people vote for me, then we'll have
the religious state that I'm hoping for. And if four years later, at
the next elections, they no longer want a religious state, they can
vote against it.
My worst nightmare is to see Jews fighting other Jews.


Q: In this Jewish state, would you apply biblical punishments, such as
the death penalty for incest or adultery?

A: The Halacha provides for a death penalty only if there is a
Sanhedrin. Without a Sanhedrin, the Halacha does not allow capital
punishment. And in present-day Israel there is no Sanhedrin. Therefore
there cannot be a death penalty.


Q: In a religious state, will all public schools have to be religious?

A: If someone wants to send his children to a private school, he's
free to open a private school.
But in a religious Jewish state, all public schools will have to be
religious. It's through education that I want to achieve my
objectives. What I want is not at all the Western state that some
people would like to see. There are many rights which Western
democracy considers fundamental and which I consider to be without
foundation.


Q: What rights?

A: For example, the right not to respect the Sabbath. This right must
not exist. In all public life, the Sabbath will have to be respected.
Restaurants must be kosher. If you don't want to eat kosher food,
you'll just have to eat at home. As for censorship, it already exists
in Western democracies, and in the state that I want to see, there
will obviously be censorship. The atmosphere in which this country
lives must change.


Q: Will the members of that Supreme Rabbinic Court be elected by the
citizens?

A: No. Very much not so. This is out of the question. The judges will
have to be nominated, not elected.


Q: But supposing that the rabbis in this court don't agree with each
other. If Israel is not to become a totalitarian state, how can the
rights of the minority, who disagree with the interpretations of the
majority, be protected? In short, is there at least a democracy In the
Jewish sense of the word, which would protect the rights of the
minority?

A: Such protection exists, but only within limits. In the Halacha,
rabbis have the right to write, to speak. But all their differences of
rulings are based on interpretations of the Halacha itself. If someone
speaks against the Halacha, he can of course not be protected. In the
Sanhedrin Tractate, the Talmud says: at the time of King Hezekiah, the
Assyrians attacked Jerusalem and encircled it. So the Assyrians made
the Jews an offer: in exchange for their willingness to go into exile,
they would be granted a quiet and peaceful life. O, the other hand, if
they refused to give up, the city would be seized and they would be
massacred. So then there was a debate among the Jews in Jerusalem,
mainly between the scribe Shebna and the king. The king said: 'G~d
does not want us to surrender to the enemy. It's the Halacha.' And the
scribe said: 'We must surrender.' Then it came to a vote. About
130,000 voted in favor of surrender. The king said: 'Maybe we should
surrender, since the Bible says that the decision of the majority has
to be respected.' Then Isaiah came and said to the king: 'It is a vote
of wicked people, and the vote of wicked people does not count.' This
is the true concept! That of Western democracy is not old enough to be
mentioned when discussing the Halacha. As a matter of fact, democracy
as we know it today is a totally new concept. It is based on the idea
that we are incapable of knowing the truth. And since nobody holds the
truth, nobody can say what is true. Therefore the majority has to
decide. It's a practical deduction.
Judaism is founded on the idea that we know the truth. So it's absurd
to have people vote on the question whether or not we should keep this
truth. You don't vote on a truth.


Q: Does that mean that, according to the Halacha, a Jew cannot
individually choose his way of lift, his life style, and that he has
to submit to a collective way of life?

A: A Jewish individual cannot choose a life style contrary to the
Halacha. That's the way it is. G~d created this world for a reason: to
have people live in holiness. To talk about free choice, the freedom
to be impure would mean that this world has no reason to exist. With
such a freedom there would have been no reason to create this world.
This is the essence of our conception of the world and the role of
man.
The conception that says that the role of man in Israel is to develop
himself, to be happy, to have a guaranteed right to work, etc can't be
the essential purpose of life, but only part of it. The true goal is
to be good, to be holy, to make of this world what G~d wants.
Otherwise I don't see what could be the reason for living. At the age
of 70 or 80, one dies. Then what?
Let me say it again: democracy and Judaism 3rc two opposite things.
One absolutely cannot confuse them. The objective of a democratic
state is to allow a person to do exactly as he wishes. The objective
of Judaism is to G~d and to make people better. These are two totally
opposite conceptions of life.


Q: Yet Judaism is supposed to have given the first example of
democracy to humanity. For example, the Jewish people elected King
Saul. So the king was elected, and not imposed on the people.

A: So what? This doesn't prove anything. The first kings all over the
world were necessarily chosen by the people. I'm a graduate in
political science. I know what I'm talking about. You're right-at the
beginning, the first king is elected. Then the people agree to give up
some of their rights, for the king to protect them.
The successors of this first king arc no longer elected. But that's
not the essential point. The essential point is this: a secular
authority can undoubtedly also be chosen through democratic means, but
supreme authority must be in the hands of a rabbinic court- It must be
wielded by the judges and the rabbis. The Talmud is very clear on
this. It says that even if the king wants war, if that war is against
the Halacha, the people have the tight not to obey their king. One of
the problems of secular Judaism, of modern Judaism, is that its
ignorance is only surpassed by its arrogance. We live today in a world
where ignorant people arc arrogant!
When the Jews in Europe were emancipated a century ago, when they came
out of their ghettos, they rushed to become French, German or
something else, and they immediately forgot that Judaism is completely
different to democracy.


Q: Many Jews believe, though, that the objective off Judaism is to
deliver a message to the world by living among non-Jews. The reason
why there have been so many Jewish scientists, artists, etc is that
they have been living among non-Jews.

A: All right. Go ahead. But don't be Jewish. Don't be Jewish! Just be
a human being!


Q: Don't you consider that people such as Einstein or Freud were
Jewish?

A: They were born Jews. That's all. There's a difference between a
Jewish writer and a Jew who is a writer; between a Jewish scientist
and a scientist who happens to be Jewish.


Q: Take Freud for example. He wasn't just a psychoanalyst; he was a
member of the B'nai-B'rith in Vienna.

A: The fact is, the Jews in Vienna were living in a state of great
confusion. The only reason they remained Jewish was because they lived
in an anti-Semitic environment. Otherwise they wouldn't have remained
Jewish. As a matter of fact, you're just repeating the great insanity
of Zionism. Herzl, this country's big hero, admitted that if the Jews
had been given the opportunity to assimilate, they would have accepted
assimilation. And it was because the Gentiles wouldn't let us
assimilate that Herzl wanted a Jewish state. Now that's not really a
very positive reason for founding a state. So we're going to tell our
children that if we'd been allowed to assimilate, we would have done
so? Is that a good reason for creating a Jewish state? If you say that
to a young child or a young person, he's going to tell you: 'If I can
get assimilated, I'm going to do it. I'll go to Los Angeles with a US
immigration pass, and I'll become an American.'


Q. Would you have preferred that people like Einstein, Freud, Saul
Bellow or any other famous Jew...?

A: I'm not interested in Einstein.


Q: Would you have preferred these people to have been rabbis?

A: By all means. I'd have preferred Einstein to be a rabbi. There are
enough people around inventing things in physics. I have nothing
against universities: I went to university myself. If someone can be a
great scientist within the framework of Judaism, all right, then I
agree! But if a Jewish scientist is not a practicing Jew, there's no
difference between him and any other scientist as far as I am
concerned. Oppenheimer is a great scientist. But what do I care? If
there's nothing Jewish about him, what's the difference between him
and a non-Jew? None. The big swindle of our time is to have twisted
Judaism, to have changed it into something that it has never been and
that it isn't. G~d delivered the Jews from slavery in Egypt and gave
them a land: the Promised Land. If G~d's aim had only been to deliver
them, and if he hadn't told them to go and build this country, there
wouldn't have been this commandment in the Torah ordering us to live
in Eretz Yisrael. The theory that consists of forgetting this
commandment is a theory of fraudulent Jews who don't believe in
Judaism and who don't have the courage to say so. And so as to justify
themselves, these people say that Judaism is a universal value. But
they are wrong. Judaism is not a universal value.


Q: So you don't believe that Judaism could be bipolar?

A: Of course not!


Q: I mean to say that there can be a religious pole and a secular pole
and that these two poles could be complementary.

A: Absolutely not! Absolutely not! Of course, a person born a Jew is a
Jew. There's no doubt about that. But if he doesn't respect the Torah,
he's not a good Jew. The only reason to be Jewish is the Torah.
There's no other logical reason to be Jewish. Otherwise he is a Jew by
accident, that's all. By accident or for intellectual reasons.


Q: Yet Maimonides, the famous Jewish philosopher, lived in Spain among
Arabs. He lived in symbiosis with them.

A: That's absolutely false. You're talking nonsense. People who talk
about Maimonides like that don't know what they're talking about. The
greatness of Maimonides was to have written a book called The Guide to
the Perplexed. His greatness came from the fact that he was a rabbi.
He codified the Jewish laws. If you had read the laws written by
Maimonides, you certainly wouldn't have imagined him to be an
enlightened and progressive philosopher. Maimonides was bound by the
laws of Judaism. Because that is what Judaism is. I am not free to
decide what I want. There is the Halacha; there is a law that decides
what is G~dly and what is not. I live in this country because it is an
obligation ordered by G~d. Otherwise, why would I want to live in a
country, which, from my point of view, is miserable and uninteresting?
If G~d hadn't ordered us to live in this country, I really wouldn't
want to have anything to do with it. Because this country is an
absolute disaster, from a geographical as well as a material
viewpoint. I only live here because it is a holy commandment to be
here. When Maimonides comments on the Halacha, he speaks about the non-
Jews living in Israel, and he says very clearly that there cannot be
Jewish citizenship for a non-Jew in this country. It's not only
Maimonides saying this. It's G~d saying it.


Q: Yet the principal difference between Judaism and Christianity is
that, for a Christian, a supreme authority decides what is right to do
and what not, and that such an authority does not exist for Jews. Each
rabbi interprets the Halacha in his own way, and there are several
legitimate ways of interpreting Judaism.

A: Nonsense again! To start with, you use the word 'Christianity'.
Which Christianity are you talking about? There are 6,000 Christian
sects. And even if you're talking about the Roman Catholics, you've
got some bishops who want this and others who want that. There's the
Pope. But in France, for example, you've got Father Lefebvre who
opposes the Pope. So don't talk to me about single authorities in
Christianity. True Judaism implies the existence of a Sanhedrin. So
there is a supreme authority in Judaism: the Sanhedrin. I must insist
on this: the liberal Jew commits a terrible fraud, and he commits that
fraud because he would like to be able to decide for himself. In the
same way, a communist Jew does not practice Judaism. He practices
communism. The Jew may be called Cohen, so then he practices Cohenism!
If he's called Goldberg, he practices Goldbergism! Myself, I practice
Judaism. If one is not bound by the Torah, by the Halacha, then one
has no reason to be a Jew.


Q: When you say that, aren't you talking like Khomeini?

A: OK. Let's say you're right. So what? Who cares? People who stick
labels on you are refusing to talk about the content. What's the
problem? Anyway, I can tell you that in certain respects Khomeini and
Islam are a lot closer to Judaism than Jean-Jacques Rousseau or John
Locke or Thomas Jefferson. In my mind, there's no doubt about that. If
you start from the fundamental concept that it was G~d who created
man, and that one has to obey G~d's law, then, sure, I'm like
Khomeini, or the Pope, or any spiritual leader. I feel much closer to
them than to any Rabbi Schindler, who is the leader of liberal
Judaism. What this rabbi calls Judaism is just atheism wrapped in a
talith. Sticking labels on people doesn't lead anywhere. Let's talk
about the content.


Q: You have written that the Jews feel guilty about being Jewish, and
that they were doing anything they could to please the non-Jews, to
get themselves pardoned for being Jewish. Yet in many countries,
especially in France, there is a kind of Jewish renaissance. Jews feel
proud to be Jewish. Would you call this a new phenomenon?

A: France is a special case. France has three types of Jews. First,
the French Jews of old descent, who have always been ashamed of being
Jewish. The second category also consists of shamefaced Jews. These
are the ones who came from Poland after World War II. Then you have
the third category, those who came from North Africa - Morocco and
Algeria; this large influx of Jews has brought about a great change in
France. I don't know, though, what their children are going to be.
There are already many cases of mixed marriages between Jews and non-
Jews. The historical perspective must not be viewed in terms of ten or
twenty years, but in terms of centuries. Indeed, there are cycles in
history, and today one sees a Jewish renaissance in France. But don't
forget that today there is also a Jewish state, and that is already a
big difference from the past. The big phenomenon, though, is still the
mixed marriages, where Jews marry non-Jews while at the same time
continuing to say that they are proud to be Jewish; this, to me, is
total insanity.


Q: So you make a distinction between being a Jew and being an Israeli.

A: Of course. And that's where the great insanity of this country, the
great sickness, comes from. The problem here is not so much the Arabs
but the Jews. The secular Jew has a problem of identity. He doesn't
know who he is. So he says he is an Israeli. Not a Jew. This is
insanity. Because an Arab can also be an Israeli. To be an Israeli
means having citizenship of this country. It's not a nationality. So
the sabra lives in a state of complete confusion. He doesn't know who
he is. He doesn't know where he's going. People in this country are
sick. Intellectually sick. For me, there are no Israelis. There are
Jews. Some of them live in Israel. Others live in France. Others live
somewhere else. There is a Jewish people. Because there is a Jewish
people, we have the right to come to this country, and to take it from
the Arabs.
If the sabra isn't a Jew, then I don't know why his grandparents came
to this country and took it from the Arabs. It isn't because the Jews
lived here 2,000 years ago that they have the right to come back. Who
the hell cares whether they lived here 2,000 years ago?
The biggest fascism is precisely that: to believe that one has a right
to conic back here solely because one lived here 2,000 years ago. The
legitimate reason why we have the right to come back here is that we
are Jews and because we are Jews we have a 2,000-year bond with this
land. We have always prayed three times a day to be able to come back
to this land. And we have never given up this hope. It's not the fact
that we have come back and that we have created an Israeli state.
That's not the reason. The reason is that, first and foremost, we are
Jews.


Q: There are supposed to be two traditions. One is Joshua's Judaism,
which is a Judaism of conquerors; then there is the Judaism of the
prophets, which has a pacifist thread.

A: That's not true at all! Not true at all! These are things that
people think when they know absolutely nothing about Judaism. I can
quote you the prophets and these quotes will make your hair stand on
end. For example, Isaiah spoke of peace, but you should read what he
said on the subject of the day when the Messiah will conic, and the
brutal and bloody way in which he will treat the nations. There are
not several messages in Judaism. There is only one. And this message
is to do what G~d wants. Sometimes G~d wants us to go to war, and
sometimes he wants us to live in peace. The Halacha tells us when we
should make war and when we should make peace. People who say that
there are two messages in Judaism do not actually believe that the
Torah was given to us by G~d. If the Torah was made by men, then it
isn't Jewish! There are intelligent people everywhere. Among the
Christians, among the Buddhists, among Jews. Among atheists too. But
there is only one message: G~d wanted us to come to this country and
to create a Jewish state.
And this Jewish state has been founded so that we can live Jewish
values. The Jewish values of peace, among others. The G~d who
addressed Isaiah is the same as the one who spoke to Joshua. The same
G~d gave the same orders to the one and to the other. Just imagine, in
Jewish schools in Israel, they teach Joshua according to the Bible!
Secular Jews teaching Joshua! If I were a secular Jew, I'd tear out
the chapters on Joshua.


Q: For you, does Zionism mean that the Messiah will come soon?

A: Of course, Zionism accelerates the coming of the Messiah. I'm not a
nationalist!


Q: What do you mean, you're not a nationalist?

A: I'm not a nationalist. I'm a religious Jew. In Judaism, there is a
commandment, which says: the Jews are a nation only by the will of
G~d. To be a secular Zionist is absurd. Why should I go to war, fight
for one flag rather than another? It's insane. What difference is
there between a Finn, a Swede, a Spaniard and a Belgian? For a
religious Jew, nationalism is only one part of Judaism. A part which
is under the authority of G~d.


Q: Do you mean to say that if Zionism is not religious, there 'is no
point in having a state of Israel?

A: For me, the word Zionism means G~d's order that we live in Israel.
And to have this state is a miracle that comes from G~d. As far as I'm
concerned, we are living the end of time. We are living a messianic
era. We survived 2,000 years without a state, without an army, without
power, scattered to the four corners of the world. Think of the
pogroms, of Auschwitz, the concentration camps, the Inquisition - we
survived all that! People who believe that we have survived all that,
being atheists, are completely blind. The Jews have come back from
hundreds of countries just as the Bible said they would. We had a
brilliant victory in the Six Day War, and a few years later, during
the Yom Kippur War, we lived through three terrible days. The
difference between these two wars is explained by G~d's will.
If the Jews become religious again and do what G~d wants, then the
Messiah will come today. The creation of the state of Israel only
marks the beginning of the messianic era. The Messiah will come. For
my part, I don't doubt it for an instant.
The question is: how is he going to come? In the Jewish tradition, be
may come in two ways. If we deserve him, he may come at this instant,
in glory and in majesty. And if we don't deserve him, he'll come all
the same, but in the midst of terrible sufferings. This is why I am
fighting today. I am fighting so that the Jews become good Jews, so
that there is not a catastrophe at the coming of the Messiah.


Q: When you say that you are not a nationalist, does that mean that
the state has no importance?

A: The state is important but it is only as important as any of the
divine commandments, for example the commandment concerning the
Sabbath. It is neither more nor less important. The state is a divine
commandment. It is one means to have a properly Jewish culture. And
not to have a culture influenced by that of the majority. Or by
cultures in which we are in a minority. That's why G~d has ordered us
to live not in France or in the United States, but in Israel. Just so
as not to be influenced by majority cultures. G~d wants us to live in
a country of our own, isolated, so that we live separately and have
the least possible contact with what is foreign, and so that we create
as far as possible a pure Jewish culture based on the Torah. This is
why I am a nationalist, why I want a state: this is what G~d wants.
And not so as to have a flag like the one you see outside.


Q: You have said several times that you want to purify Jewish culture
from any goy influence.

A: That's what true Judaism means. I say it very clearly and very
precisely. And all the rabbis say it just as clearly when you discuss
it with them in private. In private they'll tell you: 'Of course,
Kahane is right.' But these rabbis don't have the courage to say it in
public. So what I say comes as a shock to the Jews.


Q: Don't terms like purity, purification, bring back bad memories for
Jews...

A: Let me tell you just one thing: does it mean we shouldn't use
tanks, just because the Nazis used tanks? Just because the Nazis used
a certain word doesn't mean that this word is bad. It depends on how
one uses the word. If I say money', the word is not in itself satanic.
If I use money to help, I'm making a good action. It makes no sense to
ban a word just because the Nazis used it.


Q: But the Nazis didn't use the term 'purification' only as a word.
They wanted to 'purify' Germany of any Jewish presence.

A: Of course! But if the Germans, during World War II, had bombed the
Jews, and if the Jews had bombed the Germans, does this mean that Jews
and Germans were doing the same thing? No. The Germans had no
legitimate reason for wanting to drive the Jews out of Germany. The
Germans had stupid, racist ideas. For me, a non-Jew can become a Jew.
He has the absolute right to become a Jew. We don't have a blood
monopoly. I don't believe in blood. I believe in a culture, an idea.
The Germans had no ideal. They based themselves on a concept that was
solely racist. To me, a black Jew from Africa is just as Jewish as I
am. Last Sunday, I made a speech at Yeruham [a development town] and I
attacked the president of the town council because he had refused to
admit black Jews to his town. So for me it's not a question of race.
It's a matter of ideals. And these ideals are G~d-given; therefore
these ideals have to be propagated here in Israel. Anyone who accepts
these ideals is welcome among us.


Q: But it is very difficult to convert to Judaism.

A: Without doubt it is difficult to become a Jew. But it's even more
difficult to buy a diamond! It's difficult because we want to be sure
that the person who wants to become a Jew does it for sincere
reasons... And not just because he's met a pretty Jewish girl and
wants to marry her. We have enough bad Jews who were born Jewish; we
don't want to add bad converted Jews.


Q: What would you say if all Israeli Arabs decided to convert to
Judaism tomorrow?

A: Obviously, we wouldn't agree to it, because they wouldn't want to
convert for honest reasons. It takes years to convert a person, don't
forget that. Anyway, the Arabs won't do it. They think that Jews are
their enemies.
As a matter of fact, leftist Jews despise the Arabs. I don't despise
the Arabs. Liberal Jews think that they can buy the Arabs. Jewish
racists think that there can be good Arabs, nice Arabs. They believe
that they can educate them to be good Arabs. What the leftist Jews
call good Arabs are not what I call good Arabs. For me, the good Arab
is a proud Arab. And I understand this good Arab. Because I too have
national pride.
At the bottom of their hearts, the Israeli Left has this feeling that
it is not entirely natural for Jews to be living here in Israel.
So they feel guilty. They feel obliged to defend the Arabs on all the
questions they raise, including the end of the Jewish state. But you
won't buy the Arabs by raising their standard of living. The Arab is
proud and he is concerned about the way his Arab brothers live. And
when certain Jews say to the Arabs: 'Look what we've done for you, all
the good we have done... We found a desert here and we transformed it
into a garden,' the Arab replies, with good reason: 'This may be true,
but it was my desert and now it has become your garden.' So I
understand the Arabs completely. It's insane to believe that you can
buy them, that because you send them to Hebrew university they are
going to turn into 'good Arabs' in the sense that the Israeli Left
means. It's quite simply false. On the contrary, they will turn into
the most dangerous Arabs. Revolutionaries are recruited among the very
intellectuals whom we are educating in our universities. We have such
a sense of guilt that we keep saying: 'Let's buy them.' You can't buy
everything. That's why I say the Arabs must leave Israel, precisely
because I believe that if the Arabs stay, they'll become the 'good
Arabs' as I understand the term.


Q: So that means war, then?

A: No, that doesn't mean war. At the present time, right now, we have
the means to show them the door. Twenty years from now, we won't have
the power to throw them out.

Q: Why won't you have that possibility twenty years from now?

A: Because in twenty years from now, we'll have as many Arabs as Jews
in this country. We have a terrible problem in Israel. It's not the
Arabs of the Occupied Territories who are the problem. We can get rid
of those Arabs now. The real problem is that there are many Arabs in
Israel who have Israeli citizenship. And these Arabs are making many,
many children.


Q: Professor Neeman has written that the demographic ratio between
Jews and Arabs has not changed since 1967.

A: Another fraud. A statistical fraud. It's a lie by the Tehiya
[nationalist party], because this party has a very serious problem: it
wants to annex the Occupied Territories and keep the Arabs living
there. The real question is the following: do we need another million
and a half Arabs? In fact, the latest statistics show that Arabs from
the West Bank territories go to work in Kuwait because there's work
there and there's no work here. Besides, Neeman is talking about the
Arabs living in the Territories, but I'm talking about the Arabs who
have Israeli citizenship. And this Arab population is growing twice as
fast as the Jewish population. Israel's Arabs are high-quality Arabs;
they all go to school, they are intelligent; they have tremendous
qualities. Northern Israel will be completely Arab in the near future.
Galilee already has an Arab majority. Umm el-Fahm [a village in
Galilee] already has an overwhelming Arab majority.
We're sitting here doing nothing, watching what is happening without
lifting a finger. Once the Arabs have a majority in this country,
they're going to do what any self-respecting nationalist would do.
They are not going to accept living in a country called a Jewish
state, in a country with a Law of Return that applies solely to the
Jews. Once the Arabs have gained a majority, they'll change the laws
and the nature of this state, and they'll be right. Completely right.
And this is why I want to move them all out now. I say now, because we
need a minimum of force to do it.
If I were the minister of defense, if I were talking to you now as
minister of defense, the mere fact of hearing me say what I just said
would sow panic among the Arabs. The Arabs are afraid of me, because
they know that I understand them.


Q: Are you intending to drive the Arabs out by military means?

A: Yes, obviously, but that won't be necessary for most of them. I'd
offer financial compensation for those who want to leave the country
voluntarily. I would only use force for those who don't want to leave.
I'd go all the way, and they know that.


Q: Do you have the money to offer them that kind of compensation?

A: That money could come, from Jews all over the world.


Q: Do you really believe that the Jews would pay?

A: Of course, because the Arabs have property, and that property would
remain behind.


Q: If an Arab came to you right now and said: 'OK, give me some money
to leave,' would you give it to him?

A: No. I don't have any money, and it's not my job to make such
payments. It's the job of the Israeli government, of the Jewish
people, to give the money. It's not mine.
I'd like to raise another question here: the Arabs owe a lot of money
to the Sephardic Jews who were obliged to leave Arab countries without
compensation. I want an account of everything the Jews from Arab
countries left behind them. Then we'll see who owes money to whom.
In any case, I am prepared to offer compensation, and the amount of
the compensation will depend on what the Jews from the Arab countries
left behind. But in any event, we're going to have to offer the Arabs
something so as to stimulate them to leave.
The real problem is that I am not about to ask them to leave. I want
to make them leave. I'm saying to them that they must leave, and I'll
make them leave. As to the cir-cumstances under which they are going
to leave, this is not up to them to decide.


Q: Therefore it won't be your party that will expel the Arabs, What
you want is to force the government to do it.

A: Of course! Because there are no other practical means of doing it.
You need government means for an action like this. But I'm convinced
that my party will be in the government. I have no doubt about that.


Q: In the meantime, you engage in, actions such as in Umm el-Fahm or
in Taibeh, to scare the Arabs and to force them to leave.

A: Absolutely. I want to scare them and I want to make them realize
that, contrary to what they have believed for fifteen years, time is
not on their side. That it is completely false that time is on their
side. They are convinced that it is the Jews who are afraid. But I, I
go to see them in 13mm el-Fahm, and I tell them: 'You must leave now.'
And that changes everything.
I'm smart enough not to use force. Because that's just what the police
would like to see me do. I believe that within five years, we're going
to be part of a coalition government, at least.


Q: Your party, the Kach, has been accused of having close links with
the Jewish terrorist group TNT. You are believed to have planned
attacks on mosques and other similar actions.

A: I don't like to talk about these accusations. When someone calls me
a Nazi, I don't answer him. I'm not obliged to answer every dog that
barks. If you come to see me with proof that I have committed such
acts, then I'll discuss it with you. This doesn't mean that I believe
that such actions shouldn't have been committed. But I think that such
actions are not opportune for the moment. Because we're soon going to
be in the government. That's why people on the Left are afraid of us.
They believe that I have no political future in Israel, but they're
still obsessed by me.


Q: Still, one of the members of your party, Richter, is in prison
because of terrorist activities. You do admit, don't you, that Richter
has committed acts of violence?

A: Yes, of course he has.


Q: And he is a member of your party?

A: Obviously, I completely agree with Richter. But he didn't commit
these acts as a member of the Kach party. He committed them on behalf
of himself, as a person called Richter. Besides, I can assure you that
if the police had the slightest evidence against the Kach, I wouldn't
be sitting here talking to you now. I'd be in prison. Believe me, Kach
won't give them this satisfaction.


Q: Does that mean that Kach does not encourage violence, but if a
member of Kach commits acts of violence, you support him?

A: This applies not only to Kach members, but to anybody. And I
approve of anybody who commits such acts of violence. Really, I don't
think that we can sit back and watch Arabs throwing rocks at buses
whenever they feel like it. They must understand that a bomb thrown at
a Jewish bus is going to mean a bomb thrown at an Arab bus.


Q: One of your paradoxes is that you respect the Arabs and their
nationalism, yet you want to expel them for precisely that reason. You
also say that no Arab is innocent. Isn't that a racist comment?

A: Of course no Arab is innocent.


Q: What do you mean by that?

A: That every Arab is a proud Arab, a good nationalist. And because of
this, he is opposed to the existence of the state of Israel. When the
Allies, during World War II, bombed German towns, who did they kill?
Women, children... They could only do such a thing because it was a
war against the German people. When the Maquis in France took action
against the Germans, they didn't care whether they killed military or
civilian Germans - it was war.
War is war. Either you fight or you don't fight. The 'Palestinians',
as they call themselves, are enemies of the state of Israel.
Obviously, not every Palestinian is a bomb-thrower. Not all Frenchmen
threw bombs at the Germans during World War II. Not everybody had the
courage to do it, nor to join the underground resistance movements. In
the same way, there are Arabs who have the courage to throw bombs, and
others who don't.


Q: So you accept the fact that Arab civilians are being killed?

A: Of course. Sure. In the same way that I wholly approved of the
Israelis bombing Lebanon. Unfortunately, many civilians were killed.
But this is war...


Q: You've said in the Knesset, and it was shown on Israeli television,
that if you were in power no Arab would be killed because you wouldn't
let any Arabs stay here.

A: I don't want to kill any Arab. I want to move them out. I want them
to live happily in peace, but not here in Israel. Somewhere else!


Q: But that's a jihad, a holy war that you want to conduct against the
Arabs.

A: No, it's not a jihad on my side. It's a jihad on their side.


Q: What do you want to do with the Christians in Israel? Do you want
to throw them out too?

A: Any non-Jew, including the Arabs, can have the status of a foreign
resident in Israel if he accepts the law of the Halacha. I don't
differentiate between Arabs and non-Arabs. The only difference I make
is between Jews and non-Jews. If a non-Jew wants to live here, he must
agree to be a foreign resident, be he Arab or not. He does not have
and cannot have national rights in Israel. He can have civil rights,
social rights, but he cannot be a citizen; he won't have the right to
vote. Again, whether he's Arab or not.


Q: So you would accept having Arabs in Israel, as foreigners.

A: Certainly. But since I know and respect them, I know very well that
no Arab under the age of 40 would accept such a situation. Just as the
Blacks in South Africa won't accept a similar situation. But there is
a big difference over there, because South Africa belongs to the
Blacks.


Q: Let me ask you again: what would you do if the Arabs opted for the
status of foreign residency?

A: I don't think that they would accept it. Some of them, maybe, but
only a few.


Q: You said just now that in twenty years, Israel will no longer have
the strength to expel the Arabs. Why are you so worried about the
future, given that the state of Israel has won every war since Israel
was created?

A: I'm not talking about a war; I'm talking about inside the country.
These are two different problems. In twenty years, the Arabs inside
the country will be 35-40 per cent of the population. They will all be
citizens. There isn't a country in the world, which has two peoples in
it, which has such a demographic distribution, and which has been able
to live in peace. Look what's happening even in those countries where
the differences between the two communities are not so great, where,
for example, there is only a simple religious difference between
Catholic and Protestant Christians. Here we are different from the
Arabs in every way. We speak a different language, we have different
religions! There's bound to be a bloody civil war here between those
two population groups, and once the Arabs make up 40 per cent of the
population, it's going to be a terrible problem.


Q: You want to throw them out - but where to? If nobody wants to take
them, what are you going to do with them? It is very likely that no
Arab state is going to accept them.

A: I'm not asking anybody to accept them. I'm going to hold the
bridges on the Jordan river; we'll hold them for two weeks. We'll
evacuate the Arabs and let Jordan go to the United Nations. What I am
concerned about is the survival of the state of Israel as a Jewish
state, and I can't sit and worry about whether this or that is going
to happen.


Q: You once said that if no solution can be found, you'd put them into
work camps.

A: I've never said that. They are going to have to get out of here.
That's all.


Q: After the massacres of Sabra and Shatila, you wrote that it should
have been the Israelis who did it.

A: I said that this was what Israel should have done, not after
seizing the camps, but during the actual fighting. The Israeli
government was responsible for the deaths of sixty to seventy Israeli
soldiers. It is responsible because it sent them inside PLO areas, PLO
nests, without the backing of air support, without anything. Not even
artillery. It was insanity to send them like that, under the pretext
that the civilian population should not be harmed. Plain murder! This
is why I said that these 'civilian' camps should have been bombed in
the first place. Of course, once these camps had been bombed, one
should not have killed the survivors.


Q: According to you, where are the exact borders of Eretz Yisrael?

A: The borders that are mentioned in the Bible.


Q: But there are different interpretations among the rabbis...

A: Let me tell you what the minimal borders are, and which the rabbis
agree upon, according to the description given in the Bible. The
southern boundary goes up to El Arish, which takes in all of northern
Sinai, including Yamit. To the east, the frontier runs along the
western part of the East Bank of the Jordan river, hence part of what
is now Jordan. Eretz Yisrael also includes part of the Lebanon and
certain parts of Syria, and part of Iraq, all the way to the Tigris
river.


Q: But that would mean perpetual war with the Arabs.

A: There will be a perpetual war. With or without Kahane. It's not
Kahane who wants it. It's because the Arabs believe that the Jews are
thieves. I can understand the Arabs' point of view. It has nothing to
do with what the boundaries are. Whether they're here or there makes
no difference. When Israel accepted the 1947 boundary, the Arabs said
no. Then the Arabs would not accept the 1949 boundary, and then the
1967 boundary. The Arabs won't accept any boundary. The Arabs believe
that this country belongs to them, and I can understand them.
Therefore there will always be war. It's not so terrible. It's nothing
exceptional. I've served in the army. My son serves in the army. And
my son-in-law serves in the army.


Q: So, in your opinion, according to Judaism, violence is legitimate?

A: Everything has its place. The Bible says that there is a time for
war and a time for peace. Sometimes the Bible commands Jews to go to
war. Sometimes it commands them to live in peace. When you are in
danger, then it is an obligation to go to war; you have to go to war.
If you are not in danger, then you should not go to war.


Q: As far as your party is concerned, you have said that violence
would be political suicide without the support of public opinion in
Israel.

A: Absolutely. That's true. That's why I tell my people not to use
violence. Not for any moral reason, but because it would be stupid to
recommend violence. Because once the police arrest them, they will not
get the backing of public opinion. You have to know when is the right
time to use violence Right now, we have a political opportunity to win
ten seats in the Knesset. And at the next elections it is certain that
we will be the third largest party in Israel. Then we'll be a
government party.


Q: Is violence between and among Jews legitimate?

A: It depends on the circumstances. For example, if we began a program
to move the Arabs out, and there were Jews who opposed this program,
even though it was a government law, then we would have to use force
against them. That s sad. But they would have to obey.


Q: What would happen if the present government decided to give back
all or part of the West Bank? Would you oppose it by force?

A: No. Not by physical force. We would use civil disobedience. We
would put up passive resistance, just as we did in Yamit. There's no
question that there's a real possibility that this may happen and that
the Labor Party is ready to do it. I'm convinced that very many Jews
would fight that, but, again, not necessarily by resorting to force.
But the government will not be in a position to evacuate these places
if 50 000 Jews barricade themselves in their houses. Peres will not
risk a civil war in the country.


Q: If you say that the realization of Eretz Yisrael is a divine
objective, beyond isn't that the same as saying that this objective
lies beyond existing laws?

A: Absolutely! Absolutely! But I know that if we used force against
the army, we would lose. No religious commandment orders us to commit
suicide in order to have Jewish law. But there can be no doubt
whatsoever: accord-ing to Jewish law, we have the duty, even the
obligation, to use force in order to prevent any government violating
the laws of Judaism. Therefore I'll wait until I'm in command.


Q: Many people in Israel believe that your politics and your program
are a provocation and that they help the Left in Israel and the Arabs
to form an anti-Israeli front. What do you think about that?

A: The Tehiya also think that, although they too are fighting for the
realization of Eretz Yisrael. They are worried that we will take two
seats from them in the next elections! That is of course true. They
can't fight us on an ideological or political level; they can't find
any good arguments against us. Because their plan to annex the
Territories and the Arabs living there is absurd. Anyway, to answer
your question, the non-Zionists have always said that Zionism is a
provocation against the Arabs. Obviously it is a provocation. So what?
Any nationalism is a provocation to other nationalisms.


Q: Do you expect to come to power through elections alone?

A: Yes... But if you ask me what is going to happen in this country in
the near future, I'd answer that things aren't that simple. The
economic problems are so very serious; the government is a fraud, just
like every other government. Democracy breeds governments that are
fraudulent, because a government which has to rely on its voters for
its existence cannot tell the truth. The bitter truth. If they say:
'We have to cut down on this... we must reduce that... people won t vote
for them. Therefore the government has to lie. That's what democracy
is all about! Democracy is like a compost, it nurtures fraud and lies.
And it must lead to a dictatorship eventually. Because since a
democratic government doesn't have the courage to take the steps that
are needed, problems are bound to get worse, and in the end the people
will accept dictatorship. This train of events may happen here,
precisely because the majority of people in this country have no
experience of democracy. Even without Kahane, democracy means nothing
to them. Therefore we might get a dictatorship here, if the
unemployment situation gets worse.


Q: In your opinion, who would be the best candidate as a dictator?

A. At this moment, Sharon, without any doubt. He has the best claim.
But he is a very, very bad person.


Q: Why?

A: He is very bad! I'm not talking about his political views. I don't
judge him according to his views. He's bad. He's a liar. He has no
moral principles. He has no ideals. He's capable of doing anything,
and I'm just as afraid of him as the Left are.


Q. Then you wouldn't approve of a dictatorship under Sharon?

A: Absolutely not.


Q: Most of your militants are Americans. How do you explain this?

A: That's not true. Obviously, the 27,000 people who voted for me are
not Americans. It's just another lie they're spreading about me. I
must say that as an immigrant from the United States, I'm not used to
the kind of lies they tell in Israel. I'm not used to the corruption,
the perversion of truth. Because, in this country, the truth is
perverted. Sure, there are Americans in my movement, like there are in
all the political parties. But we also have a high percentage of the
new Russian immigrants among us. Because these new immigrants see in
us a real Zionist movement. We proclaim the centrality of Judaism in
this country.


Q: What is your social and economic program?

A: I don't know what a 'social program' means in this world. In terms
of economic program, there is no doubt that this country needs to put
an end to the clawing fingers of all the bureaucrats. This country has
to encourage private enterprise. We need capital. Israel has a unique
chance, which you find in no other country. An unbelievable number of
Jews of the Diaspora are prepared to help this country and are already
helping it. But nobody is prepared to come to Israel to set up a
business when he has to crawl at the feet of government officials to
get support. Government officials in this country can drive you crazy.
Economic power is the basis of political power. And the establishment,
the institutions of Right and Left, all these people who have
political power, are not ready to allow the development of free
enterprise here. Yet they need private capital. But they want to get
it on their own terms. We should do everything to stimulate private
investments. We must give incentives to people who want to invest, to
build factories here. Factories create new jobs. They create export
potential, which will provide the foreign currency, which we so badly
need. We must pass laws that release private enterprise from the claws
of the Israeli bureaucracy.


Q: So far as economics are concerned, then, you're a liberal?

A: Yes. That's my first answer to the question. My second answer is as
follows: 98 per cent of the land in this country belongs to the
government. Why? The land should be given to young couples so that
they can build on it. Keeping land in the hands of the government is
typical of the mentality of Eastern Europe.
But I also believe that the state has social obligations. For example,
there has to be a minimum wage; this is not enforced here. It's a
disgrace to have young Arabs at the age of 13 or 14 working in Jewish
factories. A disgrace! There must be social laws. Judaism is based
upon social conscience, on goodness, on generosity. A Jewish state
must not have one set of social laws for Jews and another for non-
Jews. They must be the same for everybody. Most important, though,
this country must be opened up to private investment by the Jews of
the Diaspora. Then we would have a tremendous country. And a
flourishing one.
This country was created by Jews coming from the dictatorships of
Eastern Europe, who had no background whatsoever in concepts of being
liberal. In their own way, they were Bolsheviks. This must change.
When these Jews arrived here, they believed that this country was
theirs, it was their property. They make me laugh when they talk to me
about democracy. How did they treat the Sephardic Jews? When the
Sephardis arrived in 1948, they put them into transit camps. And any
Sephardic Jew looking for a job had to show his Histadrut card first.
Without this card, he didn't get the job. Would you call it democratic
to put young Yemeni Jews into leftist kibbutzim, forcing them not to
respect the Sabbath?
These East European Jews have an anti-democratic background. They are
the ones who kidnapped members of the Irgun and Stern and turned them
over to the British occupation forces; they were the ones who fired on
the Altalena, killing nineteen Jews. Rabin was the commander of the
operation. So let them not talk to me about their moral principles and
their love for the Jews!


Q: Today's young Israelis are far more attracted by material comforts
than by Zionist ideals. Doesn't this mental attitude work against the
establishment of settlements in Judea and Samaria? Is there sufficient
pioneer spirit to colonize the West Bank?

A: Were there enough people in the 1920's who wanted to come to
Israel? Today, if we had a government, which was really committed to
creating settlements, we wouldn't have this problem. We don't have to
reproduce the same material conditions as in 1920! We can set up
settlements that are more comfortable. If they were given free
housing, many young people and young couples would come. The issue you
are raising, though, is far more complex and more serious. Western
democracy feeds everything that is wrong and sick in human nature. The
parties compete with each other in promising people an easy life. The
main concept of democracy is that people should believe that they need
to have more. There, the only true value is that of wanting more. But
that's exactly what's happening here. Everyone says that the Sephardic
Jews who came to settle in Israel were backward people! Yet these Jews
arrived here with very deep values. And these values were taken away
from them and replaced by Dizengoff Street values [Tel Aviv's Oxford
Street]. By materialism! It's really unbelievable! Insane! It's a
sickness! You listen to people talking on u bus. What are they talking
about? All they can talk about is money. That's what this country has
made of' them. This is not a Jewish state. It's a Hebrew-speaking
Portugal that would like to be a Hebrew-speaking Sweden or America.
This is our tragedy! And it has to change. Our struggle is not a
political struggle; it is an ideological struggle, a struggle of two
different concepts of life, two different concepts of the world. We
want to create this country with Jewish values. As I have said many
times in the Knesset, it is a struggle between the 'Hellenists' of our
time and the Jews who want to remain Jewish.


Q: In other words, you want to revert to the ideals of the founding
fathers of Israel, to the pioneer values of Zionism.

A: No! The founding fathers created this state of affairs without
realizing what they were doing. When you take Judaism away from
Zionism, when you create a secular Zionism, you create this state of
affairs. Secular Zionism - what is that supposed to mean? Why should
someone live in a kibbutz? Why? Tell me! If be is taught that the main
thing in life is to live better, to have a more comfortable life... for
me, life in a kibbutz is not happiness!
The only basic values in life are those which are commanded by G~d.
The others are temporary. They may be good for you, but not for me.
Certain values may be good for one time but not for another. That's
why the idealistic kibbutz concept of the founding fathers has failed.
The kibbutzim have failed. They mean nothing to young people.


Q: Does this mean that you are in favor of a patriarchal state?

A: It means that there must be a state governed by the Torah. Schools
must be impregnated by the Torah and the teachings of the rabbis.
Maybe I'm going too far: I don't know to what extent the Sephardic
Jews who are supporting me now on the Arab question will Support me in
other matters.


Q: You once said that you were more afraid of the Jews than of the
Arabs.

A: Yes, that's true. I know the Arabs. I know how to deal with them.
But I can't throw the Jews out of the country. I can't do that to
them! So the problem is not simple.


Q: What do you think about the other Israeli Parties who try to limit
your freedom of action and to marginalize you? There seems to be an
anti-Kahane unanimity in the Israeli establishment, ranging from the
Left to the Right.

A: As I said before, I raise a terribly painful problem for the Left,
when I say that Zionism is completely incompat-ible with Western
democracy, and when I ask: Why be a Jew? Why have a Jewish state? I
bother them much more than the communists do. When I raise the issue
of a fundamental Jewish state, they realize that it is a basic issue.
The Right, to a large extent, has the same problem The Right also has
no logical reason to be Jewish. Plus of course, I am taking votes from
them. That's what bothers them most of all. Likud realizes that I'll
take many seats away from them. I'm going to take two seats from the
Tehiya too. Therefore they'd rather see me disappear


Q: But even some Israelis who have taken action against the Arabs and
who should be sympathizing with you have declared from their prison
cells that they have nothing in common with you.

A: Obviously. If people knew that they have links with Kach, they
would get a much tougher sentence. I know them very well. I visit them
in prison. In private, they most certainly don't think what you've
just been saying.


Q: Likud doesn't seem to have a clearly defined attitude towards you.
Shamir, for example, disapproves of your activities, yet he wasn't
present at the vote to restrict your parliamentary immunity.

A: That's true. The Likud people are confused. Contrary to them, we
have an ideological concept. As a matter of fact, they're afraid.
Because they know that they'd loose even more votes if they voted to
get me out of the Knesset.
In fact they don't know what to do with me. Take that vote restricting
my immunity! That was a mistake! When they passed that bill, they
doubled the number of my followers.


Q: What kind of relationship do you have with the people of Gush
Emunim?

A: A good relationship. We are on excellent terms with Rabbi Levinger.
But they are a single-issue movement: the land, the land of Israel.
That's fine. But this country has other problems besides the
establishment of settlements: social problems, problems with the
Arabs, religious problems. And our party deals with all these
problems.


Q: Have members of Kach established settlements in Judea and Samaria?

A: No. The government will not allow us. We have tried to settle there
for years, but in vain.
Two years ago, we tried to seize a part of this territory. We settled
on a hill. The government was convinced that we wouldn't be able to
hold out through the winter. But we did. Then the army came and forced
us out.


Q: How many members are there in the Kach party?

A: Maybe 5-6,000. People here don't join parties. They vote for a
party. Not like in France or the United States. Here, the real power
is determined by the number of votes given during elections, by the
number of seats in the Knesset. What is important here is knowing
whether you are able to take power, to enter the government.


Q: Economically, and to a large extent militarily, Israel depends on
the United States. Do you believe that the United States will allow
you to apply your program concerning the Arabs?

A: I don't have to ask the Americans' approval. The United States,
just like any other country in the world, is not ruled by ideals. De
Gaulle once said: 'There are no allies, there are only interests.' If
the United States believes that Israel is in line with its interests,
then there's nothing Israel can't do. But if the United States thinks
differently, then there's nothing that Israel can do which will have
American backing. It's simply a matter of interests. At the end of
World War II, the American government backed Franco. It supported
Salazar. It supports Pinochet. Just as France will support any country
that buys jet planes from it. And so on. China is now giving its
support to such 'peace loving' countries as Pakistan.
Your question contains a much deeper and more important aspect,
though. Whatever happens to Israel will happen by G~d's will. I
believe in G~d. Most people, even practicing Jews, don't believe in
G~d. They play a game. They pray to G~d but they don't really believe
in the existence of G~d. I, however, I believe that G~d really exists,
and that G~d decides what is going to happen. And he decides on the
basis of whether we deserve it. The essential concept of Judaism is
faith that G~d is stronger, stronger than any government. Yet this
country is governed by people who don't believe in anything, who have
no faith. Therefore they are terrified by the Americans. Shultz writes
an absolutely disgraceful letter to Peres, telling him to straighten
up economic matters in his country. And Peres obeys. We have become a
people of beggars who don't believe in themselves, and certainly don't
believe in G~d. If the Jews believed in G~d, G~d would arrange for
America to back Israel. Even Ronald Reagan can't do as he wishes. He
is an instrument in the hands of G~d. And in the end, he is going to
do what G~d wants him to do. That's how a devout Jew should be
talking.
If we go on like this, without Kahane - forget Kahane - this country
will become a vassal of the United States. And it will give up the
West Bank. It will do so if America says: 'Do it; otherwise you won't
get any more money.
G~d repays blow for blow, measure for measure. Now we are being
punished. We do not trust in G~d. We looked to Washington. Now we have
to pay the price. If I was prime minister, I'd talk to Washington
exactly as I'm talking to you. I'd say: 'Stop bothering me. Next time
you want to find out how your P16 performs in combat, I'll tell you to
find somebody else to tell you; and if you want a captured Soviet T72
tank from us, I'll tell you to find someone else to capture one.'
That's how I would talk to the Americans. And after that, I'd go to
the synagogue to pray.


Q: In 1968, you created the Jewish Defense League in the United
States, to defend the poor Jews against the Blacks.

A: No. Not necessarily against the Blacks. Against anybody who
attacked them. The ones who were attacking them happened to be black,
but I'd have done the same thing if they had been blond Swedes.


Q: Didn't you create this League because you had special problems with
the Blacks in the United States?

A: I have problems neither with the Blacks, nor with the Whites, nor
with the Yellows, nor with the Greens. I have problems only with anti-
Semites.


Q: Do you think that your actions abroad against the Soviet Union
produced results?

A: There's not the slightest doubt. The exodus of Jews from the USSR
started in 1968-69 because the problems of these Jews were making
headline news thanks to our actions. Before that, nobody knew that
such a dramatic problem existed.
We wanted to threaten the détente between the United States and the
USSR. The Russians, of course, weren't afraid of the Jewish Defense
League. But the actions of the League threatened detente, and that is
what the Russians were afraid of.
The USSR is not Luxemburg, don't forget that. When the ambassador of
Luxemburg is beaten up in the streets, it's not very serious. But if
the first secretary of the Soviet Embassy is beaten up in the streets
of New York, it is a humiliation to a superpower, and they then recall
their ambassador.
The USSR had to react. But how could it react best? What did it need
most of all? Science, technology, foreign currency, wheat, or keeping
the Jews? For the USSR, it was better to let the Jews go. That's
exactly what happened.


Q: But emigration of Russian Jews has come to an end.

A: It came to an end because the Jewish Defense League stopped its
actions.


Q: Does the League no longer exist?

A: It still exists, but it hasn't done much during the past seven or
eight years. It is no longer what it used to be. Therefore, obviously,
you could say that the actions of the League have influenced the
position of Jews emigrating from the USSR.
I'll say it again: thanks to the League, the problem made the
headlines. If you want to solve a problem, you must first let people
know that it exists. This was the first step. The second step was to
give the Jews inside the USSR an enormous amount of support. They
finally became aware of the fact that other Jews, outside of the USSR,
cared about them. The worst thing for a prisoner is not knowing
whether anybody cares about him. The third step was to push the other
Jewish organizations into doing things. The so-called extremists are
the ones who push moderate people into doing things that they would
never have done otherwise.


Q: Have you given up the League now?

A: No. But now I live in Israel, and it is very difficult to lead an
organization that is located in the United States. Any activist group
must have a very strong leader. People who come into this kind of
organization are violent people. They must be strictly kept in hand.
You have to know how to calm them down. And it is not easy to find
people in the United States who are capable of filling this role.
Leaders don't grow on trees. Officially, I'm still the head of the
League. But in practical terms it is difficult for me to run it from
here.


Q: But aren't you sharing your time between Israel and the United
States?

A: Yes. Out of every five weeks, I spend one week in the United
States. But to run the League, I would have to be in the States full-
time. Otherwise it's not going to work.


Q: The League was created to defend the Jews of the Diaspora. But why
do they need to be defended when they have succeeded so well
everywhere, except perhaps in the USSR?

A: If you had analyzed the situation of the Jews during the 1920s, you
would have come to the same conclusion. From 1820 to 1920, you could
have demonstrated by a graph that the situation of the Jews was
constantly improving. Liberalism was in the ascendant.
Fraternity too. If, in 1925, somebody had said: 'In twenty years from
now, one third of European Jews will have been massacred,' he would
have been called insane. The reason why the situation of the Diaspora
is good today is because the world economic situation seems to be
good. In reality, the world is heading for an economic collapse of
monumental proportions Western Europe is already beginning to suffer
today and tomorrow it's going to have the same problems as Israel.
Nobody can spend more money than he makes. If you're an individual,
the bank will stop giving you loans within a day. A city can go on a
little longer, but in the end it will collapse. Then we are going to
be faced with a terrible wave of and-Semitism. Worse than in Germany.
Why? Because the West is like a drug addict. The West is addicted to
materialism. A person in the Western world who loses his house or his
car turns into an animal. And since everybody believes that all Jews
are Rothschilds, that they are obviously and even ostentatiously rich,
so Jews are going to be the main target of people's hatred. Anybody
can detect anti-Semitism when it is already there. But not everybody
has the ability to foresee anti-Semitism tomorrow. The Talmud says:
'The wise man can foresee the future.' Therefore we have to be wise.
I'll add this: according to Judaism, according to the rabbis, G~d does
not want Jews to live in foreign countries. He wants them to go home.
And if they refuse to go home, they risk having to pay for it with a
great tragedy.
This state of Israel came into being not because Jews wanted it, but
because they had no other choice. Without the holocaust, there
wouldn't have been a state of Israel. The overwhelming majority of
Jews came into this country because they had no choice. As soon as a
Jew has a choice, he doesn't come here. Or, what's even worse, he
leaves here. Jews here have forgotten that they had no other choice.


Q: You have an apocalyptic view of the Jews' destiny.

A: Yes, of course, for the time being. But in the end, I have a
beautiful vision, because then the Messiah will come.


Q: Have you been working to set up a concrete and effective
organization for the Jews of the Diaspora to defend themselves?

A: Yes.


Q: You have been accused, for example, of having smuggled weapons all
round the world in order to arm the Jews.

A: Yes, I've done that.


Q: Why?

A: Because I can't say to the Jews: 'If you don't want to go to
Israel, so much the worse for you, there's nothing I can do for you.'
I can't do that.
I have to tell them: 'Jews, get out!' That's the only thing I have to
tell them. However, I also say: 'If you can't leave, I have an
obligation to help you; and perhaps then, in the meantime, you will
realize that emigrating to Israel is the only right thing to do.'
So, in any event, I have to warn the Jews of the potential danger. I
can't just sit back and say to myself: 'If they don't want to listen
to me, I won't help them.'
This is why I created the Jewish Defense League, and our motto 'Never
Again' does not mean that 'it' will never happen again. That would be
nonsense. It means that if it happens again, it won't happen in the
same way. Last time, the Jews behaved like sheep.


Q: Are you still helping the Jews of the Diaspora to get organized?

A: Absolutely, yes. That's the reason, by the way, why I'm barred from
Canada, Belgium and England. Someone is trying to organize a trip to
France for me. Up to now I've not been barred from France...


Q: It won't take long, though!

A: ...It's a pity, because in Canada, we have a very strong section of
the JDL, surprisingly. There's another one in England. There was also
one in France, but now several other Jewish self-defense groups have
been set up there, which are excellent.


Q: You must be talking of the Betar...

A: No, I'm talking about the organization headed by a lawyer...


Q: Hadjenberg?

A: Yes.


Q: Where do you get our money from?

A: We get very substantial support from the American Jews. Many rich
Jews give me a lot of money, but they won't admit it openly.


Q: I believe you once had links with the Mafia..

A: That's absolutely right.


Q: With Colombo?

A: Yes, with Colombo. But you couldn't really call it 'links'.


Q: What was the connection, then?

A: At that time, Colombo was faced with several lawsuits. Most members
of the Mafia have never realized how important public relations are.
But he did. And that's the reason why he was killed.
Colombo had decided to create a civil rights movement for Americans of
Italian descent. He needed to establish contacts with other ethnic
groups, not just Jews, but others too. He didn't know much about the
Jews. So he asked around who was the most popular rabbi in America.
Somebody told him about Kahane. Not that I was exactly popular... At
that time, many rabbis were already against me. Colombo turned up in
the following manner: thirteen of our people were being brought up for
trial and we needed bail money. He gave us the necessary money. He did
it for a very simple reason: to win sympathy among the Jews. His group
took part in demonstrations for the Jews in the Soviet Union. He was
on American television, saying that the Italian Americans backed the
rights of Jews in the USSR. As for us, we never did anything for him,
apart from the fact that by helping us, he strengthened his own cause.
I'd take help from anybody. If the state of Israel took help from
Joseph Stalin, then I could take help from Joe Colombo. That's all
there is to my relationship with the Mafia. You can't really call it
'links'.


Q: But did you help each other in illicit arms deals?

A: We certainly did.


Q: Didn't you have another name before 1965?

A: Yes, I was called Michael King.


Q: Did you work for the FBI then?

A: Yes, I worked for the FBI.


Q: What can you tell us about that period?

A: Together with a friend of mine, I worked in a small research group
in Washington. At that time, the FBI wanted to get more information
about the actions of the right wing, not just the left wing,
movements. The FBI came to see us, knowing that we were Jewish, and
offered us a contract. Our work consisted of infiltrating the John
Birch Society, and I was very keen on doing it, because it was an
extreme-Right, anti-Semitic and very dangerous movement. I infiltrated
them over a period of three years. I had a new name, a new address,
etc....


Q: So you were an underground FBI agent in the Birch Society?

A: I became a member of the organization and was able to discover the
source of their funding. It was a great service rendered to the Jewish
cause. Since 1965-66, the John Birch Society has been reduced to
nothing.


Q: Are you going to write a book about this experience?

A: I'm not going to write any kind of biography; all biographies are
the height of egoism. Whenever I have some time, I sit and study the
Torah. If I had the time to write, I'd write about the Torah. Not
about myself.


Q: So you infiltrated the John Birch Society. But we've heard that you
also infiltrated left-wing movements.

A: That's not true.


Q: You helped the FBI against student movements opposing the Vietnam
War...

A: That's not right. Granted, I was a strong defender of the Vietnam
War. But I did not work for the FBI in this connection.
At that time I believed, and I still believe it, that a weak America
is a bad thing for Israel. The only power that protects the free world
from the Soviet Union is America. In my opinion, no other superpower
of the size of America has done as good a job as America. It has the
means to conquer, to take over the world, but it hasn't.
The problem with the Vietnam War was not whether it was a good or a
bad war. The problem was that a defeat for the United States would
have given rise to a hostile movement in the United States against
sending troops to any other part of the world. Unfortunately that's
what happened, and now we feel the consequences of this reaction. I
never fought against leftist movements. All these rumors are absurd.
Many of the things that were written about me at that time aren't
true.


Q: Do you mind if I ask you a personal question? You have been a
rabbi, and you were dismissed...

A: Unlike France, America does not have a consistory that deals with
this problem centrally. In America, you have total anarchy: a few
people can get together and decide to create a synagogue. And they
create synagogues not so much for religious reasons, but more for
social, almost mundane reasons. All right, some Jews created a
synagogue. They needed a rabbi. They hired me for the ceremonies,
weddings, funerals, etc.... I had a lot of influence on the children;
they liked me. Because of me, the children started to practice the
religion, to observe the Sabbath. This really upset the parents. The
children started eating kosher food, but their parents' homes were not
kosher. Therefore I was dismissed from the synagogue. The people still
liked me. They said to me: 'Rabbi, please stay! Just stop converting
our children!' I couldn't accept that condition, and resigned.
Anyway. I no longer wanted to be a rabbi. It's not the right job for a
good Jewish boy.


Q: But to he a lawyer is a good job for a good Jewish boy. Why didn't
you practice law, then?

A: I studied law because I wanted to serve in the Foreign Ministry
here. That's why I did my degree in international law. But I couldn't
join the Foreign Ministry because I wasn't a member of the Labor
Party...
Anyway, I never dreamed that I would be doing what I'm doing now. I
didn't have the least idea.


Q: Didn't you plan your political career?

A: No. When I was in the United States, I was the editor of the Jewish
Press; that's where the idea came to me to create the Jewish Defense
League. As editor of the Jewish Press, I heard about many things that
were not printed in the newspapers. That's when I decided to create
the League.


Q: Why did you wait until 1971 before settling in Israel?

A: I did not wait! As a matter of fact, I had planned to go to Israel
as soon as I was done with my FBI job, in 1966. But I didn't have the
money. I had to go to work to make money. I had to put it off. Then,
in 1968, I created the Jewish Defense League.
They told me that the League would collapse if I left then. Which was
true, by the way. Another three years went by. By that time I had
children and I was afraid they would speak Hebrew with an accent. So
then I decided to leave. For the League, it was a big mistake. But for
me, the time had come to go to Israel.


Q: Why do you keep your American passport?

A: For obvious reasons. I can't go to Canada as it is. And if I no
longer had my American passport, I wouldn't be able to go to the
United States either. That's the only reason.


Q: Besides religion and politics, do you have any hobbies? You like
baseball, don't you?

A: I love baseball. I'm a great sports fan, but I no longer have time
for things like that. When I have time, my greatest pleasure is to sit
down and study the Torah. It is an extraordinary intellectual
challenge.
When I'm in the States, I sometimes go to watch a game. But I don't
have many opportunities any more. You can't imagine how I loved sport.


Q: Do you believe that you have reason to fear for your personal
safety?

A: Definitely. And the police often warn me that they have found out
about a planned action against me. In this respect, the police do a
good job.


Q: But where do these threats come from? The Arabs?

A: No. From Jews.


Q: What kind of Jews?

A: Leftist Jews. The media are responsible for inflaming such poison
and hatred against me! There must be a dozen leftist Jews who really
believe that they would be doing a wonderful thing if they killed me.


Q: Do you know of any particular case, of a serious assassination
attempt?

A: No, not in Israel. But in the United States I received a letter
bomb. It was a miracle-my secretary got suspicious. Really a miracle!
You see, in the United States it's not like in Israel, there was no
reason to get suspicious.
There hasn't been a serious attempt here in Israel. I don't know why.
Of course, I take steps to protect myself. But if a person is really
determined or crazy enough to try something against me, there's
nothing I can do to stop him. You can't stop someone who is
determined. So I don't sit and worry about my personal safety.


Q: You said a while ago that if the government had the least bit of
evidence that you had participated in acts of violence, it would
arrest you. The government, however, says that it doesn't want to give
you the opportunity for a political trial, which would only mean more
publicity for you.

A: I think that they're right, from their point of view. I can
understand them.
I never cry about what people do to me. In this world, you give and
you take. You have to expect occasionally to take blows. That's
alright.


Q: Let's get back to the Jewish Defense League. You say it is no
longer active?

A: On the contrary, it is active. In November 1984, we organized a
large demonstration in America for Jews in the Soviet Union. We
blocked the traffic on the streets. And I was arrested. So you see,
the League is still active. But not as much as when it was in the news
every single day, every single night. There were bombings of Soviet
agencies. It was really unbelievable!


Q: So the League will never again be what it was?

A: I don't know. But nothing grows out of a vacuum. The League grew
and developed out of a period of activism. The anti-Vietnam War
protests, the Black Panthers, etc. This kind of activism no longer
exists. Students study seriously. They sit and worry about their
pensions. It's terrible, but that's the way it is. And since this is
no longer a time for activism, it is not surprising that Jewish
students no longer take to the streets. I used to have no problem
finding thousands of students to take to the streets. Now to get just
300 is an extraordinary feat. Therefore we have to wait until general
conditions improve.


Q: You have been accused of once having planned an attack on the
Damascus Gate in Jerusalem.

A: No. That wasn't an attack. I wanted to fix a mezuzah to the
Damascus Gate. People were furious, of course. But as far as I am
concerned, this gate is Jewish.
After the massacre of the Israeli athletes in Munich, I was accused in
Israel of having sent out arms and people to attack Libyan embassies.
This is correct. We planned to attack the Libyan Embassy in Brussels.
The people in charge of this mission did arrive in the Belgian
capital, but the ammunition was seized at the airport here. And they
arrested me and Paglin, a former member of the Irgun. We received a
suspended prison sentence.


Q: The Israeli government seems to treat you with indulgence. Usually,
people who are caught smuggling arms receive a much higher penalty.

A: I don't believe at all that they are indulgent. Take the Gush
Emunim movement, for example. The government is very dose to them.
Nevertheless, it inflicts heavy sentences on them. To each his
paranoia! You never treat people you don't like very correctly! To
this day, people here believe that I am an agent of the FBI. Yet I
spent one year in prison in the United States. But I won't lower
myself to reply to nonsense. The Israeli government has arrested me so
many times, so many times. Once they even put me in prison for eight
and a half months on an administrative warrant, not even after a
trial. You can't say that I am one of their friends.


Q: In your dreams, how do you visualize the Middle East?

A: If the Jewish people do what G~d wants, if they return to Israel,
and if they come back to being what G~d wants them to be, then the
Messiah will come. At that time, we'll have peace not only in the
Middle East, but all over the world.


Q: Then there will be no peace before the advent of the Messiah?

A: No way. We can't have peace any other way. A rabbi once said: 'To
deceive other people is a terrible thing, but to deceive oneself is a
crime.'
We can't have peace here. The Arabs sincerely believe-and I can
understand them-that Haifa belongs to them, and Tel Aviv, and Jaffa,
not just Judea and Samaria. They sincerely believe-and, again, I can
understand them-that this country belongs to them. In 1948, 80,000
Arabs lived in Jaffa. There were 70,000 in Haifa, and 50,000 in Ramleh
and in Lod. They want to go back home. They don't want to go to
Nablus. Or to Jericho. They want to return home. Up until the last
elections they believed that they would be able to return home within
ten years.
Now everybody is nervous. I have no doubt that I will soon be in the
government. And everybody knows that I'm going to have a say in what
has got to happen. Every-thing I'm telling you now, I've been saying
for twenty years, and I'll say it again tomorrow.
The biggest error would be to believe that once Kahane gets into
power, he'd be more moderate; that's not true at all.
I'm bound by the Halacha as much as by the obligation of the Sabbath.
Just as I'm not going to stop respecting the Sabbath, I'm not going to
stop saying what I am saying to you now.


Q: Some people thought that according to the Cabala the year 1984 was
to he an apocalyptic year. What is your opinion?

A: I'm not making any forecasts. I believe in what I told you before.
Who cares whether it's 1984, 1985, 1986 or 1988? What is certain is
that very soon terrible things are going to happen, and also beautiful
things. I want the beautiful things to happen; I want to prevent the
terrible things. Will I succeed? That all depends on the people here.


Q: Do you believe in the wisdom of the masses?

A: There is wisdom and there is stupidity in the masses. I don't like
to generalize. The masses can be intelligent and have a lot of common
sense. There is a lot of common sense in people who lead a common,
uneventful life. But the masses don't have a lot of imagination.
Intellectuals do, but they have very little common sense.
My own life is a mixture of the two. I was raised in a neighborhood
where there weren't many Jews and where I used to fight with non-Jews
daily. Later they became my friends. Because when you fight with
people, you end up friends. We used to drink beer together. I learned
what life is all about, in the streets, and at the same time I went to
yeshiva and university. I think that's a good mixture.
I'm not a great fan of the masses. I know that they don't have what
intellectuals have, but I also know that they have what intellectuals
don't have. And I've found a kind of mixture of the two.


Q: You say that you're not a racist, yet you are against mixed
marriages.

A: It's hot that I'm against them. This is the opinion of every single
rabbi. The tragedy is that the rabbis don't have the courage to say it
out loud, although now it has become a very serious problem.


Q: In what way?

A: It's not only the marriages. There are also many people just living
together. Many, many thousands of Jews live together with non-Jews. In
every Arab village in Israel, you find Jewish women married to Arabs.
According to Jewish law, the children of these couples are Jewish. But
they consider themselves Arabs.
The Halacha forbids such unions. Therefore I'm raising a very
sensitive issue, because there is a contradiction bet-ween Judaism and
Western thought. That's what bothers them. When the government
proposes its own bill to con-demn racism, I'll vote for it. Because
I'm against any form of racism. Racism means, for example, that I can
say to another person that I am much more important than he is, and
that he can never be like me. This is happening right now, in South
Africa: when you're black, you can't become white. Therefore, you're
inferior. This is what I call racism.
Judaism says: of course we have the truth. G~d gave us the truth; the
Jews are a chosen people. But anyone who wants to be part of the
chosen people is welcome. All he has to do is become Jewish. Therefore
the government will have to be very careful when drafting this bill.
Because Judaism is diametrically at odds with Western democracy,
absolutely incompatible.
This is what I tell the government: if you want to con-demn Judaism,
all right, do it. But don't call it Kahanism. Call it by its right
name. But they don't have the courage to do that.


Q: Did you want to go to the Arab town of Taibeh in order to declare
war on mixed marriages?

A: Not at all! I didn't want to go to Taibeh. I'm not crazy. I only
made this declaration to have all the newspaper reporters go there. I
succeeded; they all went there!


Q: What are your intentions concerning all these mixed couples?

A: The problem is not only the mixed couples; I want to get rid of all
the Arabs living in Israel.
Obviously, nothing can be done about the mixed couples, except
encouraging them to separate. The overwhelming majority of women who
have married Arabs are Sephardis. It's only a small number of
Ashkenazi girls who meet Arabs on college campuses or in the
kibbutzim. It's a small minority. The overwhelming majority consists
of poor Sephardic girls. They are attracted by Arab boys because they
have cars, money, etc....
We have to go and tell these girls: your ancestors lived in Morocco
for hundreds of years, in Yemen for over 2,000 years, and never during
all these years have there been mixed marriages. And here, because of
these miserable Ashkenazis-I'm an Ashkenazi-who have been polluted and
corrupted by Western democracy, here you have become what your parents
and grandparents have never been, now you are doing what your parents
and grandparents never did.
The tragedy, I would say to them, if I had a chance to talk to them,
is not only what you are doing to your own lives; you have children,
so you re not only deciding about your own lives, but about the lives
of your children, and the children of your children, etc.... It is a
chain that goes far back in time, and far ahead. We all are links of
the same chain.


Q: You want to punish mixed marriages...

A: I want to make mixed marriages a crime. Why should it be alright to
punish people who don't pay their income tax? Or people who drive
through a traffic light? Mixed marriages are much more important to
Judaism than these matters. Our future is at stake.
Take our president, whose name is Herzog. He is so terribly British!
There is so little Jewish about him, really! In June 1984, an
international conference was held in Israel against assimilation and
mixed marriages in the Western world. During this conference, our
president came up and spoke against assimilation and mixed marriages.
I wrote a letter to him, complimenting him on his magnificent speech
and telling him that I'd like to discuss the problem with him and that
I would be most pleased if he had the same attitude towards
assimilation and mixed marriages in Israel. He answered that he didn't
believe that Israel had a prob-lem. I don't like dishonest people like
that. I don't care what a person's political views are. If they want
to be leftist, that's alright with me; but they should be honest
leftists!


Q: What kind of punishment would you propose for mixed couples?

A: That's up to the courts and the law.


Q: You must have an idea...

A: It makes no difference whether they get a six-month prison sentence
or a 100-shekel fine. What matters is that mixed marriages must be
considered a crime. The true problem here is, I say it again, that
young Israelis here don't know who they are; they have no identity.
They don't know what their Jewishness is, because of a secular
Zionism, which has failed, which has been bankrupt since its very
beginnings.
By its very nature, secular Zionism cannot provide any Jew with a
reason to be Jewish. At best, it can provide him with a reason to be
an Israeli. Which is absurd, as Arabs can also be Israelis. Like
anybody else.


Q: Some rabbis who disagree with you admit that the Bible forbids
mixed marriages, but they also consider that the Bible is an
anachronistic document from a firmer age, and that you have to move
with the times.

A: I have argued with such a lot of rabbis! If a rabbi doesn't believe
that the Bible is the word of G~d, then he doesn't believe in G~d.
He's a 'reformed' rabbi. He should stop talking about the Bible. I
don't even know why he calls himself Jewish. Again: a person who
doesn't believe in the Bible but insists that he is Jewish is a
racist. He should just call himself a human being. Period!
I am not a racist. I am a Jew. How can these rabbis know that such-and-
such a rule was good for times past, but not for today? I believe that
the Bible is the word of G~d, and that it is valid for all times. The
only people who can argue about the Bible with me are people who
believe in the Bible.


Q: Can you tell us how many mixed marriages there are in Israel at the
present time?

A: No. According to the Ministry of Religious Affairs, there are about
7-8,000 mixed marriages with Arabs. In most cases, these are Jewish
women married to Arabs. You seldom find a Jewish man married to an
Arab woman. This figure does not include the thousands of Jews who are
living together with Arabs. And it's going to get worse. Until very
recently, it was not at all common practice to have Arabs live in
Jewish towns. Today it is very common; once the barriers are broken
down, the number of mixed marriages is bound to increase. Many people
say: so what? But I say that if you are Jewish, and if you want to
remain Jewish, then it's a serious problem.


Q: Some rabbis give different interpretations of the Halacha,
especially the former Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, Yossef Ovadia;
they believe that human life is holier than land, and that human life
must not be endangered to conquer a hill. What do you think about
that?

A: If you follow this logic, we might just as well give up the idea of
a Jewish state. Of course, if you want to have peace, there is a very
simple solution. Do away with Israel and there will no longer be war.
As a matter of fact, the press has distorted what this rabbi is
saying. I know what he is thinking. He has said: 'We don't have the
right to give up any land that has been won back. But if it means
endangering the lives not only of a few, but of thousands, then it
must be given back.'
And I might add the following: how do you know that we would have
peace if we returned part of the land? Rabbi Ovadia therefore has
spoken in general terms, but he didn't say that we have to give back
the land. Of course, human life must be respected. The rabbi says that
if we could guarantee that we'd have peace by returning part of the
land, then yes, we should give it back. We don't have this guarantee
at the present time.
In general, I disagree with Rabbi Ovadia with respect to the Halacha.
I sent him the manuscript of a book I've written; unfortunately, he
answered in the terms you've just mentioned.


Q: Rabbi Yossef Ovadia goes even further. He says that the Israelis
should talk with the Palestinians in order to find a solution.

A: I'd talk to anybody, any time. I've always been against Begin's
principle of not talking with the PLO [Palestine Liberation
Organization].


Q: Is that true?

A: Yes, of course. I'll tell you why. It's very dangerous to believe
that the PLO is different from other Arab representatives. As a matter
of fact, all of them are pro-PLO. Begin created the concept of the
'moderate Arab'. There are no moderate Arabs. There are clever Arabs
and stupid Arabs. Clever Arabs don't say what they mean. I'd love to
know what Rabbi Ovadia would have thought had he been in Israel in
1948, when Ben-Gurion proclaimed the state of Israel. Thousands of
Jews were killed during the war that broke out afterwards.
Would he have said then what he says today? Again, nothing bothers me
so much as the lack of consistency, of logic and honesty in people's
minds.


Q: In 1984, the Rabbinic Council cited Rabbi Abraham Yitzhak Kook, who
was in favor off fraternal relations between Jews and Arabs. Wasn't
that implicitly condemning you?

A: I don't know what that means. I don't know what he would have said
if he had been around during the wars against the Arabs. This brings
me back to what I said about people's contempt for the Arabs. The
Arabs do not want peace. They want a country. And Zionism is not here
to bring peace. It is here to create a Jewish state, and peace, of
course, if at all possible. My main objective is a Jewish state, with
or without peace.
Anyway, doesn't everybody want peace with the Arabs? I want peace with
the Arabs, but on my terms. And the Arabs also want peace, but on
their terms. Their terms and my terms are not the same. And Rabbi
Kook's terms probably weren't the same either. The problem with rabbis
is that when they stop talking like rabbis, they start talking like
rabbits.


Q: You wanted to go to Hebron to celebrate the assassination of Fahd
Qawasmeh [the former mayor]. Doesn't the Bible prohibit rejoicing in
the death of others, even if they are enemies?

A: In the Megila Tractate, the Talmud relates the story of King
Ahasuerus: the king called his first minister Haman, asking him to
have Mordecai get on the king's horse. So Haman went to see Mordecai,
who had been fasting for three days, and who told him: 'I am too weak
to get on a horse.' So Haman bent down, and Mordecai kicked him.
That's what the Talmud says.
Yes, of course the Bible says not to rejoice over a fallen enemy. But
when this enemy is the enemy of the Jewish people, it's a different
matter: we have to rejoice, even in their holy places.
Many Jews talk about Judaism although they know absolutely nothing
about it.
So, let's talk about Qawasmeh... he was some kind of moderate?! He was a
member of the Palestine National Council. You can't call him a
moderate, not when his four children wore uniforms on the day of his
funeral!
Nobody would have blamed me for proposing a toast to his death if he
had been a Nazi. And the Jews, when the Nazi criminals were hanged
after the Nuremberg trials, didn't they drink a toast and say:
'Lehayim!' ('To Life')?
My line is honest and clear.


Q: You have said that you respect Khomeini. In what way do you respect
him?

A: It's not really a matter of respect. If Khomeini succeeds in
combating effectively prostitution and drug abuse, then he is doing a
good thing. When he's saying that there shouldn't be anarchy in the
world, that's a good thing. But of course, if he then does the
horrible things everybody says, then it is a terrible thing.


Q: You said that you are not a racist. Yet, when speaking about the
Arabs, you use very racist terms, terms that are offensive. You have
said, for example, that Arabs breed like rabbits. Wouldn't you call
that a racist term?

A: No! I sincerely wish the Jews would make babies like rabbits. This
figure of speech was meant to explain that Arabs make many babies and
that it is a threat to us. Pakistanis have many children; it doesn't
bother me. G~d bless them! And if the Arabs want to have many babies -
outside of Israel - G~d bless them!


Q: Before coming into power and being in a position to institute your
program, you probably have a minimum program. Can you talk about it?

A: The first bill, which I presented to the Knesset, has nothing to do
with the Arabs. Because my first project is to change the school
system in Israel, inasmuch as the major part of studies should be
devoted to Judaism. This is my main concern. This is the only way to
save us and explain to the Jews that they must be Jewish.
As for the Arabs, I would like Social Security matters to be taken out
of the hands of the government and handed to the Jewish Agency. It is
a private organization and it will make payments only to Jewish
people. It's insanity, paying Arabs for making children! The Jews must
be clinically insane to have such a system.
I also think that the Arabs should do three years of National Service.
Not in the army, of course. But they could build roads, etc. I want to
make life hard for them. I want them to think: 'It makes no sense to
go on living here; let's take our compensation payment and leave.'


Q: You also want to prohibit non-Jews front living in Jerusalem, and
to have segregated beaches for Jews and non-Jews?

A: That's right.


Q: But that's apartheid!

A: No, it's not apartheid. The segregation I propose is restricted to
the beaches. I don't want it on the buses, for example. The reason why
I propose this bill is that Arabs don't go to the beaches for the sun
and for the water, they go there for the girls. Because they can't
find any girls in the Arab villages, and Arab fathers won't let their
daughters have fun at the beaches.


Q: What about Jerusalem?

A: I have not invented this interdiction for the non-Jews. It's
written in the Talmud. You wouldn't believe it, but when I talked
about this project, everybody all over the world acted as if Meir
Kahane had discovered America! I can't help it if it is written in the
Talmud. What can I do about it?


Q: Is it true that you want the Omar Mosque to be destroyed?

A: I want to move the Arabs out from the two mosques on Temple Mount.
The Arabs have no right to be there. Can you imagine what the Muslims
would have said if the Jews had gone to Mecca and built a synagogue on
the Kaaba, the holy site of Islam? The Temple Mount is not a holy site
of Islam; it is the holiest site in all of Judaism. I want the Arabs
to get out of there. I don't want to blow up the mosque. But I want
them out at there.


Q: But if somebody blew up the mosque, would you applaud it?

A: I certainly would.


Q: What would you say if a non-Jewish state imposed on Jews the same
things that you want to impose on non-Jews here?

A: I'd be very happy. I'd even pay them to do it. It's the only way to
get the Jews to come here.


Q: Then you approve of the racist measures the Soviets have used
against Jews?

A: I sincerely hope they do to their Jews what I want to do to the
Arabs. I really wish they would expel all their Jews tomorrow. That's
what I shouted at Wilner of Rakah [Communist Party].


Q: But Rabbi Hillel has said: 'Don't do unto others what you don't
want them to do unto you.'

A: Yes, he said that. But he was talking about private quarrels,
quarrels among neighbors. He wasn't thinking of one people hating
another. Besides, if you follow this logic, the Tsahal should never
bomb Arabs. Because we don't want to get bombed. This is neither the
right time nor the right place to apply such rules.


Q: Do you personally resort to violence?

A: Yes. And I have been arrested several times. Outside of Israel, I
have been arrested for having bombed Soviet agencies. I have spent one
year in prison in the United States.


Q: And what do you think about murders among Jews, for example the
killing of Emil Grunzweig, one of the Peace Now activists?

A: Terrible... If he really was murdered. But nobody knows, nobody
knows yet; there have been a lot of rumors... But if he really was
killed by a Jew, it would be a terrible, a tragic incident; this Jew
should be brought to trial and sentenced. You don't do that to a Jew.


Q: In other words, you'd never resort to violence against a Jew? Not
even against a communist Jew?

A: If a Jew used violence against me, I'm not sure that I wouldn't
retaliate. J3ut we certainly wouldn't be the ones to start using
violence against Jews.

Q: A few years ago, a bomb was left in the offices of a Jewish
impresario in New York, Sol Hurok; this bomb killed a Jewish
secretary. The Jewish Defense League was implicated in this terrorist
act.

A: In Jerusalem too, there was the bomb attack on the King David Hotel
in 1946, which caused the deaths of seventy Jews. A terrible tragedy,
which Begin himself had provoked. Unfortunately, when there is war,
certain tragic events can't be avoided.
At the time of the bomb attack you mentioned, I was here, and I
learned about the incident through a phone call from America. It was
terrible for me. But what can I do about it? Hurok wasn't only a Jew.
He was also bringing over Soviet culture to America. A very dangerous
culture for us. Because after having seen a performance by the Bolshoi
Ballet, you can't have bad feelings for the Russians, because it's so
beautiful. And the same is true when you hear the Moscow Symphony
Orchestra. The Russians certainly don't send their groups and
orchestras to America solely for the artistic pleasure of the
Americans. They use them as a political instrument. I met Hurok twice,
in 1969 and in 1970. And I told him: you are 86 years old; for once in
your life, do something for the Jewish people. You have so much money!
You have more money than G~d could give you... Stop these tours! And
he answered with his Yiddish accent, his thick Yiddish accent: 'I
can't do that.'
Therefore, unfortunately, there was that bomb attack. It was not an
explosive bomb. It was a smoke bomb. And I don't know how this poor
Jewish girl died. A terrible tragedy. But these things happen! During
the last Lebanon war, our own planes bombed our tanks and killed forty
Israeli soldiers. It's a terrible thing. What can we do about it?


Q: Is it true that you want the army to execute terrorists on the
spot, when they capture them?

A: Definitely! On the spot! On the spot! Right away! Just as we would
have done with the Nazis.
I can't imagine anyone getting angry with me if' I had ordered Nazis
to be killed on the spot during World War II. Terrorists must be made
aware of the fate that awaits them when they get caught, and maybe
they'll think twice before starting an action. I know these people.
I've been in prison with terrorists in this country. (This country is
sick-in jail they put you together with terrorists.) The terrorists
were laughing. And I want everybody who is about to commit a terrorist
act to know that he will be killed as soon as he is caught.


Q: Do you accept non-religious Jews in your Kach movement?

A: Most voters for my party are not religious. Most members living
outside of this city - this is a religious city - are non-observing
Jews.


Q: Does that create a problem?

A: If it's not a problem for them, then it's not a problem for me.
They accept our program for certain reasons.
The Jewish Defense League, for example, was open to everybody. Kach is
and will remain open to everybody. A Jew is a Jew and I don't care
what he thinks.
.

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newsgroups.derkeiler.com  > Archive  > Soc  > soc.culture.jewish  > 2008-03