Cohen getting her gormy head kicked in on the moderated group - A mitzvah.

Eli Grubman" <eli.grubman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:dutfq3948nvdmeo2tdhor081bsrncc2oji@xxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 4 Feb 2008 20:28:01 +0000 (UTC), flaviaR@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


On 4-Feb-2008, Eli Grubman <eli.grubman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 10:15:56 +0000 (UTC), moshes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

>Eli Grubman <eli.grubman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
>> micha@xxxxxxxxxxx (Micha Berger) wrote:
>>>Eli Grubman <eli.grubman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>>> Except that I'm not the one using the euphemism "exempt" for
>>>> "excluded".
>>>
>>>Lety's see. It's now 5:48am. I'm up and about to leave for shul.
>>>My wife is sleeping; her alarm is set for over an hour from now.
>>>
>>>Would you say she is
>>>(a) exempt
>>>(b) excluded
>>>from having to wake up for shacharis every morning?
>>
>> She is exempt from having to wake up for something she's excluded
>> from.
>>
>> She may waive the exemption and get up an hour or so earlier, but she
>> would still find herself excluded :-)
>>
>>>Her being on the other side, *excluded* from the minyan is a
>>>consequence
>>>of the primary fact, that she is *exempt* from praying in formal
>>>services.
>>
>> Or, put more simply, excluded from the minyan by virtue of being
>> excluded from praying in formal services. Her participation cannot
>> count towards the minyan.
>
>But that does not mean there is no *value* to her prayers.

Of course. But neither does it mean that her prayers are equal in
value to men's prayers.

Your assumption that this is so, unborne out by anything
in Judaism, is astounding.

The very fact that your prayers don't count towards the minyan should
tell you that they're of less value.

>On the
>contrary, we learn many of the rules of prayer from the description
>of a woman's prayer in the Bible. Chana, the mother of the prophet
>Shmuel, prayed in the Temple and her prayer was answered.

Fair comment. It is not for us to question whom God listens to and
why.

Nor is it for us to unilaterally decide that "women's prayers aren't as
valuable because they're not demanded." Simple logic would dictate
the opposite, as they would then be the result of free will rather than
being demanded.

"Simple" seems to be the right word for that "logic". Why should
voluntary prayer be more valuable than prayer which God himself
demands? I hope you're not suggesting that demanded prayer is
complied with unwillingly or grudgingly?

>As others have noted as well, communal prayers *nowadays* (for the
>last 1900-odd years) are in *place* of the sacrifices in the Temple.
>That is a specific time-dependent ritual which women are exempted
>from. So as you say, she "cannot count towards the minyan". But that
>does not mean she cannot pray or that her prayers are not valuable.

Of course, as long as she understands that her prayers are not
commanded and are therefore not seen as equal to men's prayers in
God's eyes.

Your reiterating a point that is unporiven beyond your say so is a
very poor debating technique.

Your inability to understand/accept that Judaism is incompatible with
modern feminist notions of equality is simply astounding.

Eli


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Alternative Bar Mitzvah Ceremonies For The Active/Child
    ... She is exempt from having to wake up for something she's excluded ... Or, put more simply, excluded from the minyan by virtue of being ... But that does not mean there is no *value* to her prayers. ... prayed in the Temple and her prayer was answered. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Alternative Bar Mitzvah Ceremonies For The Active/Child
    ... She is exempt from having to wake up for something she's excluded ... Or, put more simply, excluded from the minyan by virtue of being ... But that does not mean there is no *value* to her prayers. ... and the more commandments one is obliged to ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Alternative Bar Mitzvah Ceremonies For The Active/Child
    ... She is exempt from having to wake up for something she's excluded ... Or, put more simply, excluded from the minyan by virtue of being ... But that does not mean there is no *value* to her prayers. ... in Judaism, is astounding. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Alternative Bar Mitzvah Ceremonies For The Active/Child
    ... She is exempt from having to wake up for something she's excluded ... Or, put more simply, excluded from the minyan by virtue of being ... But that does not mean there is no *value* to her prayers. ... prayed in the Temple and her prayer was answered. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Alternative Bar Mitzvah Ceremonies For The Active/Child
    ... She is exempt from having to wake up for something she's excluded ... Or, put more simply, excluded from the minyan by virtue of being ... But that does not mean there is no *value* to her prayers. ... prayed in the Temple and her prayer was answered. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)