Re: OT: Lost in Translation

On Aug 3, 4:28 am, "meir b." <meir...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Aug 3, 9:25 am, Patty <pajh...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

(snip)

Exodus 21:5 The servant who on the eve of being released says I shall
not go out chofshi.  This is a Jewish servant IIRC, and as long as he
is indentured he cannot marry a Jewish woman to sire Jewish children,
thus disobeying the commandment.  So he's avoiding the commandments by
_not_ going chofshi.

     He can be married to a Jewish woman even while indentured.

He could have been married to her beforehand.
Nashim 4:5 a servant who is half indentured and half free cannot marry
a Jewess
(a fortiori a Jew who is completely indentured cannot marry a Jewess
for the first time while indentured)


Exodus 21:26 The servant (Canaanite according to  Rashi) who goes out
chofshi if his master puts out his eye or tooth.  Since Jews had to
circumcise Canaanite servants whether bought or born of a slave
mother, weren't they nominally Jews?  So if the master has to let the
servant go, doesn't that servant become bound to obey the mitsvot even
though he can't marry a daughter into the priesthood?

     No to the first question, yes to the second, as far as keeping
the mitzvot..

So chofshi doesn't mean being relieved of responsibility for mitsvot
in this case.


     While he is a servant, he is not yet a full-fledged Jew.  He is
obligated in all the negative commandments (the "thou shalt nots"),
but only those positive ones which are not time-dependent (he doesn't
put on tefillin or tzitzit, is not obligated in shofar, lulav and
etrog).  Once he is freed, he has the exact same status and obligation
as a convert.  And  a daughter conceived after his liberation from
servitude may marry a kohein.

Meir B.


Bikkurim 1:5, the daughter of a convert shall not marry into the
priesthood, and the daughter of a freed (Canaanite) slave not until
the 10th generation
Yevamot 7:8 the child of a daughter of Israel born to a father who is
a slave or non-Jew is a mamzer (and can't marry into the priesthood)
Kiddushin 4:1 mamzers can't marry into the priesthood though they can
marry Levites and ordinary Jews


From the original post:

An especially good example. The word in HaTikva, liy'ot am hofshi, to
be a free people, uses a word for free** that includes, according to
my Baltimore rabbi, and I'm sure he's right though I'm not sure the
author knew it, freedom from G-d's law. Darn, I forget which of the
other words for free he would have preferred. **And every word for
free has a related word that means freedom.

So we just found two cases where chofshi actually means returning to
responsibility for obeying all the commandments where I thought what
the rabbi said was freedom from obeying commandments. Did he maybe
mean freedom _to_ obey the commandments without interference from
government?
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT: Lost in Translation
    ... is indentured he cannot marry a Jewish woman to sire Jewish children, ... _not_ going chofshi. ... Nashim 4:5 a servant who is half indentured and half free cannot marry ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: OT: Lost in Translation
    ... is indentured he cannot marry a Jewish woman to sire Jewish children, ... _not_ going chofshi. ... servant go, doesn't that servant become bound to obey the mitsvot even ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: OT: Lost in Translation
    ... is indentured he cannot marry a Jewish woman to sire Jewish children, ... Nashim 4:5 a servant who is half indentured and half free cannot marry ... (a fortiori a Jew who is completely indentured cannot marry a Jewess ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: OT: Lost in Translation
    ... is indentured he cannot marry a Jewish woman to sire Jewish children, ... Nashim 4:5 a servant who is half indentured and half free cannot marry ... (a fortiori a Jew who is completely indentured cannot marry a Jewess ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: OT: Lost in Translation
    ... is indentured he cannot marry a Jewish woman to sire Jewish children, ... Nashim 4:5 a servant who is half indentured and half free cannot marry ... (a fortiori a Jew who is completely indentured cannot marry a Jewess ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)