Re: The Atheists' unintended gift

Amitai wrote:
On Nov 27, 5:06 pm, sheldonlg <sheldo...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Amitai wrote:
Ignore my previous, post. It got away before I finished typing it.
On Nov 27, 12:53 pm, mi...@xxxxxxxxxxx (Micha Berger) wrote:
Amitai <chr0...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Definition 3 is muddied by the unnecessary clause beginning with
"especially", so lets drop it. According to the basic Definition 3,
either we believe THAT God exists or THAT He doesn't exist. There is a
formal difference beween:
[not beleive(him, exists(G-d))] and [believe(him, not exists(G-d))]
but both are saying precisely the same thing...
The reisha and seifa of that last sentence contradict. If tere is a
formal difference, they are not sayiing the same thing.
In formal logic, where there is no room for nuance, they aren't; in
human parlance, where essentially the same statement can be made with
different degrees of intensity, they are.
say that the latter is a more emphatic pronouncement, but the
difference is one of degree, not of kind.
If "he" does not have a position about G-d's existence, then
[not beleive(him, exists(G-d))] = true
but
[believe(him, not exists(G-d))] = false
If you ask a person whether he believes that God exists, and he has no
position, he will answer "I don't know." A person who has a position
will answer either "Yes" or "No".
The second form only describes atheists, and points out that atheists
are believers. Those who plan their lives accordingly, such as those
who wrote the spate of books published in the last couple of years
that is discussed in the OP, can be said to have "a faith".
Atheism, taken to that extent, is a religion.
Suppose we were considering the existence of the Tooth Fairy would you
say that:
[not believe(him, exists(Tooth Fairy)] = true
describes a rational adult, but
[believe(him, not exists(Tooth Fairy)] = false
only describes devotees of the "Anti-Tooth Fairy" religion?
If you are prepared to subdue your indignation at the comparison, you
will have to agree that in the case of the Tooth Fairy, the two
formulations mean precisely the same thing. IMO they appear to mean
different things when referring to God only because the question is
invested with infinitely more emotional content. At the (non-formal)
logical level they are equivalent there too.
Amitai
Not really. In the tooth fairy case, no sane, even semi-rational adult
believes in the tooth fairy and all adults know it is just a fairy tale
made up for children. With God it is different. Even for atheists
there are the questions of "How did all this come about?", "Is there
anything after death?", "Is there a purpose to life?". Extremely many
sane, rational, intelligent adults believe in God to answer or address
those questions. So, it is not an appropriate comparison. For that
reason, saying either one with respect to the tooth fairy means exactly
the same thing, but not so for the case of the existence of God.- Hide quoted text -


I chose the the Tooth Fairy example for its shock value (and was
shocked that Micha wasn't shocked :-0 ).
Substitute the devil or Wicka or whatever. There are at least some (if
not extremely many) sane, rational, intelligent adults who believe
that the devil exists. IYO is "I do not believe that the devil exists"
equivalent to "Maybe the devil does exists but I don't think so"?".

NO, IMO they are not equivalent.

Also, does "I believe that the devil does not exist" imply "I am going
to write an article disproving the devil's existence?" On the factual

One doesn't have to lead to the other. I believe the tooth fairy does not exist. Am I going to write an article on it?

level, both are saying the same thing. Leaving the subtleties of
higher order logic (about which I confess ignorance) to Art and Micha,
I regard the second to be a more forceful version of the first, or
alternatively, the first to be a more polite version of the second.
Force and/or politeness are not factors in first order logic, the only
kind with which I have a nodding acquaintance.

Well, I leave the formalism to them as well. As a layman, I see quite some difference between the two statements and do NOT deem them equivalent nor one being a "polite" version of the other.


I also note that when talking about God you use the verb *believe* but
state that "all adults *know* that the Tooth Fairy is a fairy tale". I
don't propose to go into the recurrent debate about the distinction
between knowledge and belief. Let me say merely that IMO *I believe*
- in the sense of *believe that* rather than *believe in* - is just a
weaker form of *I know*.

The "know" is that people "know" that the tooth fairy was invented by humans as a nice story for little children. Hence, no "belief". No one *knows* whether God does or does not exist. Hence, the proper word is "belief" or (sorry Micha) FAITH.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Atheists unintended gift
    ... either we believe THAT God exists or THAT He doesn't exist. ... will have to agree that in the case of the Tooth Fairy, ... believes in the tooth fairy and all adults know it is just a fairy tale ... Substitute the devil or Wicka or whatever. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: A Letter to George Hammond, and all Christians for that matter.
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  • Re: A Letter to George Hammond, and all Christians for that matter.
    ... >> something other than the tooth fairy. ... > with anyone of those teeth and so her existence is 100% irrelevant. ... > then God becomes 100% irrelevant, ... like not all scientists need to ...
    (sci.physics.relativity)
  • Re: The Atheists unintended gift
    ... formal difference, they are not sayiing the same thing. ... If you ask a person whether he believes that God exists, ... Suppose we were considering the existence of the Tooth Fairy would you ... Extremely many sane, rational, intelligent adults believe in God to answer or address those questions. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
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