Re: A crisis in prayer

On Wed, 7 Oct 2009 21:52:52 +0000 (UTC), "Steve Goldfarb"
<slg@xxxxxxxxx> said:

In <4acd075a$0$1616$742ec2ed@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> no-spam@xxxxxxxxx (Scoop) writes:

I think I hear what you're saying, but couldn't /a/ third option be that
logic != universal tool? You seem to be positing that logic only works if it
works everywhere -- that it's all-or-nothing. I think we can be kinder to it
than that.

Sure it's possible that logic works sometimes, and doesn't work other
times. But when? How can you tell which is which? Once you assert that
logic isn't trustworthy - that there is at least one place where logic
breaks down - then you can't rely on logic at all, unless you can
distinguish that boundary.

For example, with Newtonian physics, it's not that it "doesn't work," it's
that it doesn't work for certain very large values - so it's possible for
someone to make an evaluation of whether or not Newton's laws are going to
give an accurate result.

I have already given that boundary: logic doesn't work for certain
Very Large (infinite, actually) Being's interactions with the limited
universe.

: To me, this response falls into the "logic is broken" category. Your third
: option is "logic doesn't work."

"... sometimes."

When? If you can't tell me when, then I can't trust it ever.

: as I've described above, you aren't offering an alternative within logic
: to the theodicy problem.

Yeah -- I don't think there is one. In fact, I'm, sure there's not. It's a
logical trap; a semantic Moebius strip, if you will. The problem is a
consequence of the tools with which we're trying to apprehend it.

That's a good description!

Right - it means either the premise is wrong (it's NOT the case that God
exists, is all-powerful, and is Good) or else our system of logic cannot
be relied upon, it's inaccurate. (Who are you going to believe? Me our
your lying eyes?)

IMHO that's not what Scoop is saying. He's saying that posing the
theodicy is like measuring temperature with a ruler - the tool doesn't
fit the informational inputs. Except in the metaphor you can go get a
thermometer, but in reality you can't look outside the universe.

: You're saying, in my view, throw logic out the window and "use the force,
: Luke..."

Oddly enough, that's exactly what I'm saying. ;-)

Not so odd - I understand and accept your answer. However, you are now
precluded (IMO) from making any logical arguments about God or religion -
specifically the sort of arguments that Micha makes, although I think
there are others as well that people typically invoke. Of course, I can't
think of one right now :-)

: Now, I can't tell you that approach is wrong - it may well be right.
: That's not my point. My point is that I prefer not to discard the evidence
: of my own eyes and senses in favor of trust in what is, essentially,
: hearsay. That's my opinion - it doesn't mean you're required to feel the
: same way.

No, but I do! I would no more discard the evidence of my senses than ask you
to do so. But in some cases, I would only trust them as far as I might trust
logic in others.

Senses are pretty easily fooled. Ever do one of those amusement park rides
where you sit in a decorated box that they shake around while showing
movies? Or see an optical illusion?

And still you'll believe your lying eyes? :-)

[snip]
--
Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for a sober analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
.

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