Re: Why no interest?

On Sun, 23 Aug 2009 12:10:52 +0000 (UTC), "J.H.Boersema"
<joshb@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On 2009-08-21, chsw <chsw10605@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
sheldonlg wrote:
Top posted because I didn't want to snip it and it was too long.

Does any know who J.H.Boersema is? I will leave it to other to address
all his points. I will say only one:

While I, too, call heter iska a loan, I think it is absolutely necessary
in a modern economy.

It is not necessary to have a *for profit* (interest) based business

I don't think you are translating Hebrew (or any other language) so it
seems relevant to say that in English, interest is money paid for the
use of money, and profit is return on investment. If you call profit
interest, it's going to be confusing. In fact, I would say that
profit is not interest, so we're in trouble already.

investment sector. It is not necessary because there are perfectly
fine replacement funding systems possible. It is vital, essential,
for a larger economy (larger nation, say above 100.000 people), to have
a social money investment sector - or indeed none at all.

Have you organized a social money investment sector? If you haven't
done it, who do you expect will? Since neither you nor they have done
it, you're recommending none at all. And you're talking about the
whole of society, right? Not just Jews. So where will someone who
wants to go into business, anything other than a small business, get
the money to do so?

No investment
sector is vastly preferable to having a profit-based business investment
sector

Why?

(consumption credit and mortgages are another matter, less
important how it is structured).

Why is less important?

I note the complete and total absence of any kind of argument to your
statement, and assume this means you have no arguments and wanted to

An invalid assumption. You just made several statements with no
arguments to support them. Would you want me to assume you have no
arguments?

let such be known. You are right, there are no good arguments for
profit based business investment,

Now you have assumed you know what he meant and try to agree with him
on something he never said (when you say, "You are right"). Please
don't play games here. (Games is the nicest word I can think of. I
really hate tactics like this.)

OF COURSE, there are good arguments for profit based business
investments. How do you think most of business got started? Even
when someone uses his own money, it's still a profit based business
investment. But for medium to large ventures, most people don't have
enough money, so they seek investors, or they borrow money. Would you
want it that only wealthy people can start businesses?

not if you understand what it is about
anyway. Though it takes more time, an economy can bring itself up
without an investment sector.

So you ADMIT there is a reason, and I say it is a good reason, when
just a few lines ago you said there was no good reason. That it takes
less time is a good reason. Isn't any valid reason a good reason?


This is enough for now. If you give some good replies to what I've
written above, I'll read more of your next post, and if possible come
back and read the rest of this one.

MM


Unfortunately when the economy matures
if you do not regulate money business investment, it tends to follow
the same rules as any other market, which is disastrous (it breeds
corrupt nations, who eventually collapse, though that is a profit that
tends to be measured in centuries).

One pretty decent way to handle business investment credit, is to have
it democratized, under a democratic rule, wishlist, policy directives;
public power manned by servants to the public rather then masters of
capital. Better have a democratic wind behind the bureaucrats that run
such a system, then have a profit based wind behind the same kind of
buraucrats. When you talk about Government you also talk about law and
rights, this means you can quite easily make up some rules that
"everybody is entitled every 25 years to such/such high business
investment credit on collatoral." Such rules make the system a little
more pluriform. It is also a good idea, I think at least, to make many
small and also local agencies, who all handle business credit a bit
differently. Besides that you can let it be handled by accredited good
causes and strictly democratic credit unions with a positive business
record.

And don't forget that in a well run proper economy the demand for credit
is low. Not high as it is in the constant chaos of capitalism, where
all is in an excessive state of flux that constantly needs to be repaired.

We are no longer the village tribes where everyone
was really your relative.

Your point being that we now really need formal law against for profit
investment, because we no longer can keep track of uncle Joe and
aunty Betsy who are always so greedy with all they do. Thanks for
supporting the cause for Torah, against capitalism.

Capitalism is anti-jewish. It is in direct conflict with the truth, with
the Torah.

It surprises me not one bit Israel is in exile. You can not be out of
exile if you support, are, capitalism. Don't you see ? The minute you
get your own country, it has no future under capitalist law. It is
destined for corruption. Don't you see that happen in Eretz Israel ?
Why isn't it a clean and exemplary country ? Why don't the Palestinians
support the Israeli Government, for example ? Because something is
rotten. Go check your laws, they are rotten, they caused the rot.
Even before the zionists sprang up somewhere around 1900, who supported
them: capitalist funds put their wealth behind the zionists, supported
Herzl (who wanted to convert all jews to the new testament, go look
it up !!!). The whole Eretz Israel zionist thing, it is all capitalism.
It was not Torah. Look what it has become. That is capitalism. It is
no good, it does not work. It is not strong enough to deal with the
tendencies of greed and criminality that humanity has. I'm not against
liberty, the Torah is all about liberty as well. Capitalism is a liberal
law system (allows trade in just about anything), but its results are
bundage, dictatorship, exploitation ... unfreedom. Free money trade
laws leading to a non-free life, while bonded money laws (Torah money
law also) lead to a free life. It is less of a contradiction if you
compare that to other areas of law enforcement: the lack of freedom
to murder is an example of unfree laws. You are *forced* you are
*oppressed* not to kill other people. You lack that freedom, the law
enslaves you not to kill. Opression ! Dictatorship ! Oh ? Freedom to
live is more like it. It is the same with capitalism and Torah.

Sorry, sorry if anyone doesn't like this, but it is the truth, simple.
Just the way it is, sorry.

Or where a loan was grain, gold or tools. Prohibited interest
could have been - borrow my plow and oxen, but repay with two
teams at the end of the harvest.

Such things could easily qualify as exploitation, which is prohibited.
A fair business deal would account for the degredation of the plow,
the oxen, the lost opportunity to work them if that is needed. Something
near that price mark would be ok, even if it means a fair bit of
profit (IMHO).

--

Meir

"The baby's name is Shlomo. He's named after his grandfather, Scott."
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Why unemployment could hit 14%
    ... Maybe the biggest of these problems is that economics is really a branch ... But the boss controls how the spoils of the business are divided ... The problem with profit seeking investment, ...
    (sci.econ)
  • Re: Federal Debt
    ... Your Nation has a system of speculative business investment, ... rule most businesses as they press workers in the dust providing ... The profit in your company was $ 400,-. ...
    (sci.econ)
  • Alert: error in the Jewish money Law (Sjoelchan Aroech)
    ... All instances where a person has a chance to make profit from giving ... employees little' is preferred by the financier over `a random boss' ... Sjoelchan Aroech a legal "investment contract") is a `contract where ... terms of a money lending deal: money changes hands and is later to ...
    (soc.culture.jewish)
  • Re: Storing cash?
    ... make to much profit from each enterprise. ... When the money supply expands too quickly, ... With the gas company that killed us, they up the price until so high ... business because of there short sighted decisions. ...
    (misc.survivalism)
  • Re: OT: I like it
    ... Spur investment from the two lowest tax brackets? ... start a business and employ some folks. ... fiasco and the unbelievable amount of completely blown money provided ... for tax breaks, but I don't see or hear much about what, specificially, ...
    (rec.boats)