Re: The Jesus texts within the Talmud

On Jun 25, 9:21 am, Feldman Astronomy <yacova...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jun 24, 10:06 am, Patty <pajh...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





On Jun 23, 9:33 am, Feldman Astronomy <yacova...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 21, 9:29 pm, Patty <pajh...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 19, 10:37 am, Feldman Astronomy <yacova...@xxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 19, 10:31 am, Patty <pajh...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 16, 10:16 am, Lee Ratner <LBRat...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 15, 2:17 pm, Patty <pajh...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 15, 1:11 pm, "Shmaryahu b. Chanoch" <Omega....@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1085218.html

I thought this article interesting.  I like how it starts....

The joke, if that's what it is, goes like this: "You'll have to
forgive us Jews for being a little nervous. Two thousand years of
Christian love have worn down our nerves."

Except that he's wrong.  There are no references toJesusin Talmud.
There are references to a student of Joshua ben Perachia from 80 BCE
(the time of Shimon b. Shetach).  

       You know you should actually read the book,Jesusin the
Talmud, or at least the reviews on Amazon.com before reaching a
conclusion that there is no reference toJesusin the Talmud. The book
explains, that ben Perachia is a pun on the Greek word for virgin,
making fun of the concept of Virgin Birth.

        The fact is that after the destruction of the Second Temple,
the Pharisees and theJesusMovement fought for leadership of the
Jewish community. The New Testament presents the Pharisees as
hypocrites, especially the Gospel of Matthew which was basically
written to win Jews over to theJesusmovement, because they wanted to
discredit the Pharisees as leaders. Logically, the Pharisees and their
succesors, the early Rabbis, would develop counter-arguments against
theJesusmovement and this most likely ended up in the Talmud.

Again you're pointing me to tertiary sources when I've read the
original.
As somebody pointed out to me once before, the manuscript is
controlling and that is what I have read.

The only reason people accept the urban legends spread by latterday
writers is not having read the original.

when you have educated yourself to the level that you have read the
original, then you can tell me what to think.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Everyone who seriously looked at the original Talmudic texts disagrees
with you, both hakhamim throughout the ages as well as scholars both
Jewish and gentile.  If you would look at these "tertiary sources" you
would see they are copiously cited to the original, which points you
exactly where you need to go.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Which hachamim?  The Kollel Iyun haDaf agrees with me.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I only have uncensored Talmuds.

Some modern day kollel is your source?  Give me a break.  Kollel boys
do not study history, nor do they know semitics very well.  They know
"lomdus."

Even gentiles got it right.  See Haverford, Christianity in Talmud and
Midrash.  It is available on Google books.  Jesus the Magician, by
Morton Smith.

The Talmud says explicitly "yeshuwa hannosri."  And that he was "qarob
lammalkhuth." The Goospel of Mark has stories of Yeshu sitting on a
triclinium with the mokhesim, and the entire incident parelles the
Talmudic statements about him.  "Ben Pantera" is an allusion to his
Roman father.

R. Abraham Ibn Daud, for example, Sefer Haqqbbala.  Don Yishaq
Abarbanel in various places.  Maimonides, in Iggereth Teman, and in
Mishne Tora Melakhim (Oriental texts).

Did you or did you not do an independent copius study?

Jacko- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Don't do Christian sources.  They have an agenda.

Genuine scholars are not "Christian" just because they are not Jewish.

Where do you get these absolute sweeping generalizatons from?

I READ THE BOOKS.  Did you?  I can recognize and "agenda"  There isn't
one.

Tell me how an adult during the reign of Alexander Jannai is an infant
during the reign of Herod and then born to a woman who at the earliest
lived after the date when Christians say Jesus died and probably was
born after the Second Temple was destroyed.  There's your history.

Only one source connects yeshu with Yehoshuwa ben Perahya.  You are
conflating all of them.

There are about a dozen or more other references.

And your question was answered numerous times, say, e.g., R. Abraham
Ibn Daud, Sefer Haqqabala.

And your beloved kollel iyun haddaf IGNORED the primary references in
Sanhedrim.

Your argument is naught but naked conclusions and a comlete refusal to
study the issue thoroughly. Sorry, I do not do things that way.

Nobody who claims that either Yeshu ha-Notsri or b. Sateda was Jesus,
has taken that into account.- Hide quoted text -

Everyone has.  You failed to notice their existence.  Perhaps your
notion of "nobody"is ethnocentric in the extreme.

Jacko- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ethnocentric? You've never rejected any opinion that doesn't agree
with your traditions? Go back and read your posts.

Trust non-Jewish scholars? Honey, I've read Jewish scholars who get
it wrong.

Read them? You didn't read the Munich manuscript? Or you reject it
because it's not part of your tradition?
.

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