Re: Egalitarian Orthodoxy

Marc Adler wrote:
On Jun 16, 6:17 am, cindys <cste...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

His post said: There can be no argument but that the women are being
placed in an inferior position and the only possible reason they are
willing to go along with this is because they have been indoctrinated
to the point that they are zombies and incapable of independent
thought.

If you want a different word, replace "brainwashing" with whatever
word you want. It won't change the fact that what you want is for the
opinion itself to be watered down. You want people not to think that
Orthodox women are [insert preferred word] into accepting subordinate
positions, because _you_ think they aren't. You want others' opinions
to accord with yours.

Note for background: I am a Jew who attends a Reform synagogue, and both
I and my congregation are committed to equality of women in our shul. I
need to state that right up front, so you can place what I say in context:

Marc, do you understand that you too have been [insert word here] into
assuming that the position is subordinate? It is your perspective, and
your opinion of what is valuable/desirable and what is not, which is
driving this. Keep in mind, too, that while your opinion is a perfectly
reasonable thing for you to use to pursue your life, that doesn't mean
that it is at all useful for others.

Some here have talked with regret about the tendency of the Israeli
Hareidi sects to "force their way of life upon others." How is this any
different? No-one is trying to come into my synagogue and force us to
refuse to count my wife as part of the minyan, and anyone who tries to
say that she shouldn't be counted (most likely) knows full well how
valid or useful their opinion is outside of *their* group.

You mention something about inconvenience. That's great for you, but
it's not much of an answer to the question of how free O women are to
do what they waynt. I happen not to like oily food very much, but I
certainly wouldn't be very pleased if I were somehow disallowed to eat
oily food. I may not want to, but I want that option. However lucky
you may count yourself at not having to show up for minyan in
snowstorms, that's no answer, since you don't speak for all women.
There might very well be many women who would love to have to show up
for minyan. The fact that you don't doesn't mean anything in this
regard.

You must really hate the current trends to ban trans-fat foods in
restaurants in some US localities, not to mention the proliferation of
public smoking bans.

I'll note (without much hope of being understood) that I didn't mean
brainwashing as "causing mental derangement." Nobody's calling you,
Cindy, stupid or demented. You don't need to tell us about your
college degrees to prove how smart you are. Your intelligence is
evident from the lucidity and reasonableness of your posts here.

Socialization is complex, but when the result is that girls who are
curious and naturally want to do all kinds things and are very
sensitive to injustice and fairness (as all children are) turn into
women who are satisfied with all kinds of social restrictions not
imposed on men, it makes you scratch your head, since it's so
antithetical to how they were as children. It's sad to see, and
unfair, because it doesn't have to be that way. Not only that, but
societies benefit from full and free participation of all members.
Limiting the extent of participation by _half the group_ isn't
beneficial to the community.

Same goes for minorities, gays, etc.


Men and women are different. Really, we are, no matter how many people
try to say differently. We are different physically, *and*
psychologically, as sexes (that is, some individuals may cross over onto
the "territory" of the "other" group). There is no harm in recognising,
and accepting, the parameters of your individual group. For those who
choose NOT to accept those parameters, there are options. So where's
the problem?


--
Don Levey, Framingam MA If knowledge is power,
(email address in header works) and power corrupts, then...
NOTE: Don't send mail to to salearn@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
GnuPG public key: http://www.the-leveys.us:6080/keys/don-dsakey.asc

.

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