Re: What Jewish brains are good for

Don Levey <Don_SCJM@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
moshes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Don Levey <Don_SCJM@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
Micha Berger wrote:
Don Levey <Don_SCJM@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Micha Berger wrote:

But if the law is divine, we can punt on the change by trusting His
assurance that it exists and is a positive one. Then, when we notice
it happening, we can assess that change ourselves.
But my point is that while *a* change will occur, are you suggesting
that any change resulting from a meaning we humans attach to the Divine
Law would be the/a correct one?
I thought we're talking about change in the self caused by obeying
the law. Why is that necessarily tied to what we think the law is
about? It could be enhanced by such thoughts, but need not be.

Ah, here's part of our misunderstanding. The internal change I was
discussing was the result of assuming a certain meaning for the act
itself. For example, Moshe cited the 8 days of Chanukah as
(potentially) representing the days of creation, plus either the
pre-creation state or the current state.

Close, in the second hypothesis, the eigth day represents the
Future World.

Ah, thank you!

If the transformation occurs because of committing the act *itself*,
regardless of any assigned meaning, I would argue that for the purposes
of this discussion that could be grouped with the effects of the act
itself. That is, it is not dependent upon any human-devised meaning
assigned to the act.

I'm not tha sure about the need for some "transformation". IIRC,
_you_ Don entered that into the discussion. While it may happen, if
it does, it's "gravy".

I inserted that into the discussion because I couldn't figure out a
purpose for the assigned meanings otherwise.

I've already responded to that. It _enhances_ our appreciation and
love of Torah and Mitzvot. It's not just "ecology" or "societal".
It's _connecting_ us with the Divine.

As the verse in Exodus goes, G-d offered us the Torah and the Jewish
People responded, "We will do and we will hear". Doing comes first.
Understood. Additionally, part of what I'm saying is that if the law
*is* of directly Divine origin how much more meaning is needed?
Well, one would think He isn't being arbitrary, and therefore there is a
point to all that.
Sure, but I am assuming that almost by definition we would be unable to
understand it (or, at the least, that our understanding it isn't
necessary). I've been approaching the human-made hypotheses for these
laws. Again, to look at the Chanukah example, we can talk all day about
how the individual days might represent stages of creation, or days from
birth to Brit Milah, or a whole host of other things, but these all seem
to be human-devised guesses that seem to have little purpose beyond a
salve to our psyches.

That phrase "salve to our psyches" sounds like a put-down. I see it
as making us even more aware of G-d's Greatness and the Infinity of
the Torah.

My apologies if it came across that way; it was not my intent.
Part of my discomfort with the concept may be the way in which I've seen
such things described: rather than "you might think about it this way"
it's "this is the meaning." The first makes it more clear (to me) that
it's something we devise for our own benefit; the second seems to imply
that the speaker has knowledge of Gd's intent and that this is IT.

You never heard that from me or Micha. We have much too much
appreciation of our limitations to say "the" reason". On the contrary,
we've both, often, complained about using "the" when talking about
a reason.

You may have noticed that I tend to chafe at such things, and my
reaction may be driving some portion of my response.

We're on the same page here!

As a parent, I have to ask: whatever happened to "because I said so"?

I said, many times. that our _basic_ reason for any mitzvah is
"because I said so". (Which is why Joel claims we left our brains
at the synagogue door).

Yes, I believe that's why he said such a thing. It's not how I
would characterise it, but to be honest I can see where such a
sentiment would arise.

But it's a Catch-22 situation. You want a ""because I said so". And
then Joel jumps in and says "Aha, you're a bunch of robots". And the
truth, as often the case is in the middle. which was my whole purpose
in starting this thread.

All the rest is not "why" we do it, but gives us greater understanding
and meaning _when_ we do it "because I said so". Which is why I
called this thread "What Jewish brains are good for".

...But those are meanings and understandings that we (as humans) have
tacked onto the act in the first place! Some of the ones I've seen look
like downright mystical superstition, too, which in and of itself seems
to bother me. Of course, that may be because I lack the proper
perspective; I'm just trying to fit this all into a pattern that
resonates for me.

You don't have to do it all at once, it's a _lifetime_ job. That's
why Torah study is qualitative different from studying other subjects
l'havdil. If you know the quadratic equation, there is no point in
reviewing it. When it comes to Torah, the Talmud says, there is no
camparing a person studying something _one hundred times_ to studying
it one hundred _and one_ times.

--
Moshe Schorr
It is a tremendous Mitzvah to always be happy! - Reb Nachman of Breslov
The home and family are the center of Judaism, *not* the synagogue.
May Eliezer Mordichai b. Chaya Sheina Rochel have a refuah shlaimah
btoch sha'ar cholei Yisroel.
Disclaimer: Nothing here necessarily reflects the opinion of Hebrew University
.

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