Re: Chabad House seized by terrorists in Mumbai

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:58:43 +0000 (UTC), flaviaR@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:


On 27-Nov-2008, hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Herman Rubin) wrote:

times that the birthplace of "passive resistence"
should be responding to terrorism so immediately &
firmly (& I refer to the valiant neighbors as well).

Passive resistance only works when the ones against whom
the resistance is being applied are moral.

Yes, that' pretty much what I meant above -
thanks for spelling it out better.

It worked
against the British, who were very mch against killing
innocent people not offering violent resistance, and
also who were not that numerous.

It would not have helped India against the Chinese or
Japanese, or even against the Christian mobs in the Crusades.

You know, I used to think that Europeans were the aggressors
in those instances, but, it turns out that there had been about
a hundred years of Arab encroaching on Europe before this.

Sigh ... although a major segue in this thread, as usual you & Chanoch
have everything completely tuchas-backwards.

Pope Urban preached the First Crusade in 1095 (three and a half
centuries *after* Charles Martel repulsed the Moslem armies at Tours,
their closest approach to Paris, and drove them from France) partly in
response to an appeal by the Byzantine Emperor Comenus for aid, partly
to restore Roman control over the now-separate Orthodox Church and
partly to export some of the potential militance of early reform
movements eastward, where they might dissipate against Moslems rather
than the Mother Church (recall that no pre-20th century wars were
bloodier than the wars of the later Reformation).

In addition to promising expatiation of Crusaders' sins, the
opportunity for relief from their temporal debts arose as Crusaders
traveled south along the Rhine, slaughtering the once-prosperous
Ashkenazi to whom many were indebted for their arms and retinues. This
was a process not fully completed, of course, until Hitler came to
power. Additionally, no serious student of the period doubts that
potential plunder of eastern wealth constituted the Crusader's primary
motive. Not Moslem aggression.

Once these Faire & Noble Sons of Christ arrived in the East, they
slaughtered Christian, infidel and Jew alike as they captured cities
in the east (including their fellow Orthodox Christians). Historians
such as Steven Runciman argue that Christians in Moslem-controlled
Jerusalem were treated well. When it fell to Crusaders in 1099 they
slaughtered nearly every man, woman and child regardless of religion.

Of course the Ottoman Turks continued to attempt conquest in the
East--Constantinople, Vienna, Russia--this was *centuries* later. It
had nothing whatever to do with the Crusades. Islamic influence in
*Western Europe* was already ebbing--even in Spain, where Reconquesta
had begun and would be finished in 1492--and had been for nearly four
centuries by 1095.

Agree with me or not--I really don't care. But for God's sake, please
read a freaking book or do a Web search or talk to someone before
spreading this nonsense any further.

Goodwin be damned ... this is exactly like saying that one always
thought the Nazis were aggressors, but it turns out they were just
fighting back at Bolsheviks, many of whom, we know, happened to be
Jews!

in those instances - but it turns out that
a We should heed the Roman adage, "To have peace, prepare for war.

(I had thought one of the US governmental agencies
had adopted this slogan - like maybe the Army...)

Yeah. That worked out *really* well in '14:(

Andy Katz
.

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