Re: Annulment of Vows - How Recent?

On Nov 4, 5:56 am, mos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Giorgies E Kepipesiom <kepipes...@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:





On Nov 3, 6:55am, yacova...@xxxxxxx wrote:
On Nov 2, 7:22pm, Giorgies E Kepipesiom wrote:

Saying "I swear" by itself (no "to God") in modern America is not a
binding shebu'a even midderabbanan on its face. One needs to analyze
the facts. People saying "I swear" do not share the semantics of
someone in Talmudic times invoking a Rabbinically binding oath.

This is where I get lost. Do they need to be sharing the same
semantics? It is true that nedarim and shevuoth require piw welibbo
shawim, the words of his mouth and the intent in his heart must match.
But as I understan, this means that if he accidentally said "I swear
that I will not eat figs" when he meant to say "dates", neither figs
nor dates are forbidden to him. But figs and dates are two entirely
different fruits, and the difference is a botanical difference, not a
difference of semantics. However, if his use of the word "swear" is
not exactly semantically equivalent to the use in Talmudic times, is
that sufficient to invalidate the oath? Certainly, when saying "I
swear to do XYZ" the person means to say something stronger than a
mere "I will do XYZ". Is that not sufficient? Moreso if he appends the
customary "So help me God"?

In the contemporary Ashkenasic battei din, it has become the practice
to do away with imposing nearly all oaths required by law. But it is
my understanding (which, if wrong, you will correct) that Sepharadic
battei din do still impose oaths when required. But if the proper
semantics are not to be found in modern America, what is the purpose
of such oath?

On the other hand, Jacko's transferring a fundamental requirement of
hafara by husband or father to hatara by hakham or 3 hedyothoth where
no such requirement exists does constitute a fundamental error.

As I see it, I did no such thing, but I am not interested in rehashing
yet another sugya and fighting against all the standard and
conventional assumptions.

If you are certain I have made a fundamental error, so be it. I
accept your point. In my weltanschaung, based on my interpretive
approach, well "im laddin, yesh teshuba."

That is not right. While you have conviced yourself that I do not mean
it, Torah hi welilmodh ani sarikh. This is not actually a "sugya".
Hafarath nedarim is a whole parasha in Tora Sehbikthav, where only
hafara by husband or father is dealt with, and it is only here that
the beyom shom'o and not miyom leyom requirement is to be found.
Hatara by hakham is not mentione at all, neither here nor elsewhare,
save by hararim hateluyim bise-ara, hanging on a derivation (unlikely
from the plain meaning) from the words lo yahel. Nowhere, as far as I
can see, is the beyom shom'o requirement to be found in either Rambam
or Shulhan Arukh, regarding a time limitation on hatara. If there is
such a limitation, I would surely appreciate learning the source for
it, and a few details. If you do not wish to share it with others in
this group, why not email me privately. After all, as you say-

Thank you for an enjoyable post. I am very glad I read this one.

And equally glad would I be to learn of this hithertofore unsuspected
(by me) time limit on hatara.

Don't hold your breath.

I object to your repeate dnsults bereft of any substance.

If you say nothing relevant here, how are your comments helpful to
anyone?

Plese explain yourself. Not the standrad insult and hide you are fond
of with me.

Can you? Have the GUTS?


Moshe Schorr

Jacko

It is a great misva not to worship gods incarnate, such as certain
hasidic rebbes.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Annulment of Vows - How Recent?
    ... someone in Talmudic times invoking a Rabbinically binding oath. ... this means that if he accidentally said "I swear ... Hatara by hakham is not mentione at all, neither here nor elsewhare, ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Annulment of Vows - How Recent?
    ... People saying "I swear" do not share the semantics of ... someone in Talmudic times invoking a Rabbinically binding oath. ... this means that if he accidentally said "I swear ... Hatara by hakham is not mentione at all, neither here nor elsewhare, ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Annulment of Vows - How Recent?
    ... Merely saying "I swear that I will do XYZ" does not ... consitute a shevua requiring hatara. ... certainly not a fundamental error. ... someone in Talmudic times invoking a Rabbinically binding oath. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Annulment of Vows - How Recent?
    ... swear to do XYZ" the person means to say something stronger than a ... "That entire sugya is nothing at all to do with the modern "hatarat ... Amar R. Aba Amar R. Huna Amar Rab; ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: OT: Opinions, not flames please
    ... I certainly would not want the office if they made me swear on the Bible if ... what difference it makes to honor the individual's personal beliefs. ... both the Bible and the Koran. ... What good would it do to have him take the oath on a book that he ...
    (sci.med.transcription)
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