Re: Buffalo Vaad rejects Mass Vaad?

On Aug 4, 2:19 pm, hru...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Herman Rubin) wrote:
In article <1e3bf7be-6f1f-4fb9-a4e1-0ac583557...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

 <yacova...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
To my knowledge Jews have never been crippled.  You always phrase
everything in abstract high-order egenralities.  Surley a free-
thinking mind can understand the lack of utility of such a tack.

Fortunately, they have never been in a position of control
where this could have been done.  

You confuse subject and object. Can you please see beyond your
soapbox?

Jews have run their country, and nobody has ever been crippled.

As I stated, the scholars and knowledgeable Jews who are
not Orthodox will accept the Torah as a Constitution, but
not as one given by God.  

Fine!

It may have been transmitted
accurately since the tenth century, but NOT before, and
it was not in anything like the present form until the
editing after the return from the Captivity.

You assert but cannot ever ever prove. So you resort to intellectual
insult. The "knowledgable Jews" who are not Orhtodox. Fine. I am
not Orthodox, and I DO NOT CARE about the 10th century.

I received a constitution. My nation follows its laws. It matters
not a whit to me what some "scholars" imagine happened in the tenth or
fifteenth or second century.

For what I said, we have to refer to what we know about
ancient times.  It is only since the destruction of the
Second Temple that Judaism has been able to give up the
dependence on physical objects and sacrifices.

My Judaism has never gven up on sacrifices. I see no problem with them
and wellcome the psychological health they promote.

Your statement assumes sacrifices are negative. Not Judaism. Nobody
cares about sacrifices 2000 years ago. I am speaking about the here
and now. In the here and now it matters not a whit about "ancient
times." You again are living in a scholars ivory tower of "ancient
origins." Legal systems do not give a damn about twenty centuries
ago.

                You reject it, fine.  You are not persuading

anyone to reject it by these historical assertions, any more than
someone telling me the US Constitution is invlaid because in his great
grandfather's attic in Phildelphia they found some document stating
the opposite.

I did not say it is invalid, but I did say that we do not
have the original.  

Irrelevant. You really do not get it. But that is because you read a
legal system as philosophy.

Also, the Oral Law was NOT part of the
Constitution, but was the bylaws of the Pharisees.

Not true. I have been at this four decades, and it aint true. You
assume some seperate bundles called "Written Law" and "Oral Law",
which are not there. The "Oral Law" is nothing more than how the
Written Law was understood by its readers, and that understanding
developed over time, and everyone accepted it.

"Bylaws" is misused in this context. The Supreme Court of Israel gets
to legislate, whichever affiliation its members then had.

Your assumptions are hackneyed speculation of some 19th century Jewish
scholars, illiterate in Hebrew and Rabbnics, who imagine "Pharisees"
as having some separate and independent "philosophy" that they imposed
on the law.

The Babylonians of the kalla are no more Pharisees than Samuel and his
court, or Jeremiah and his. Does anyone care if a member of the US
Supreme court is a Whig, Independnet or Democrat?

They vote as they decided to vote.

You repeatedly argue as a philosoper or theologian, not a jurist.

No, as a scientist and scholar, one who is willing to look
at all the evidence.

No. I know what law is, and you have yet to make a cogent legal
argument. NO scientist on Earth considers the humanities, or the
"Science of Judaism" to be anything related to science.

You are misleading everyone with this terminology. Yourself included.

You think you are the only charmed one who looks at the evidence?
Stop it already, Herman. We are not little intellectual bastards less
intelligent or less able to look at things than YOU are. Some of us
are much much better prepared to consider Judaism than you are.

Then, religious
philosophers tried to extend it.
No, jurists extended it.  As is their ENUMERATED POWER therein.

The claim of enumerated powers for jurists is debatable.

But the JEWISH NATION accpeted and transmitted this claim.

You have got to face the fact that your imagined cabal of shtetl
dwelling bearded conspirators did not create the Talmud. Jewish
history is not found in Der Sturmer.

The nation did accept. Like it or not. What good is your illusion
about this?

Whether Roe v Wade is "really" Constitutional is irrelevant. That is
the fact. Americans accepted it and moved on.

I read those sections as I believe they were intended
in the first place.  

But you did not have a vote in the Sanhedrim!!!!

Can you not see the difference? It is not about what an individual
says in 2008. Legal systems do not jump into the future to ask Herman
Rubin if they acted correctly They simply act. Their people either
accept their rulings or revolt. Jews accepted the Talmud.

Who cares? Knowledgable abpout what?  Someone's tehory?  Who cares.
The Constitution is accepted and our national document.  You may
reject it. You may not tell me bull*** obver and over and wonder why
I reject your theory.

Look at all the evidence.  If you insist that the Torah is
the literal word of God, given to Moses at Sinai, you are
unable to see the contrary evidence.

But the one who says the opposite says the same thing about YOU! WHY
IS THIS SO HARD???? YOU ARE NOT AN INTELLECTUAL DICTATOR. DO YOU
UNDERSTAND THAT?????????

People disgaree wiht you -- not out of lesser intellignce and not our
of delusional faith. They just disagree. Can you accept
disagreement? Yes or no?

Personally, I see you cannot even frame the issue correctly.
And who cares anyway. I repsonded to you TEN TIMES and you keep
ignoring the repsonse and get back on your one trick pony!!

WHO CARES ? The origin of th law is irrelevant. It is here, and once
accepted by the nation, it is the Constitution, like it or not,
whether a colossal lie as to its origins or not. Irrrelevant.

This means that we have to try to
decide what God wants,

No it freaking does not. I have NO DESIRE to do any such goddamn
thing. Who does???

That is an absurd idea. Man figuring out what God wants? Who are you,
Balaam?

As if a man could do that.  You argue as a Christian theologian does.
No, as humans we are in the position where we have to do this.

Not at all. If you think you can figure out the mind of God I think
you are delusional, or yor notion of God is not the Jewish one.
Fine. GO MAKE A NEW RELIGION.

Go!

The rabbis have been doing this for close to 2000 years.

Not mine. Mine have been transmitting the Law, adding to it,
modifying it and adapting it. Not once did anyone say anything about
figuring out what God wants. In fact , they said EXPLICITLY "lo
bashamayim hi."

God's opinion did not even count to them.

You are really sadly mistaken. Just make a new religion. This one
really does not fit you. You do not like anyting about it!

You never studied, so how on earth could you have nay iidea what teh
ta'ame hammisvoth are?

It is you who has not studied the historical facts.

I will pit my erudition against yours any day, any time, any where.

You may be a porfessor of statistics, but in this discipline you are
no match for me. This is not the "modern" Rubin versus his demons of
the shtetl.

Ta'ame hammisvoth has a lot to do with history. I do not see that you
have studied it. Reading about the Qumran scrolls in English has
nothing to do with it.

Nobody knowledgable would accept your assertions.

The knowledgeable unOrthodox accept them.

No they do not. I have never met anyone who accepts them.

I am not talking about DH. That is irrelevant. I could not care less
"who wrote the BIble."

No sitting US judge really cares whether Jefferson really truly wrote
the constitution.
That is irrelevant to law. You refuse to face that.

The people accepted the Constitution, and we govern ourselves by it.
Not by its "original intent" but by how our Supreme Court sees and
reads it.

You may dislike them, and you can leave. Same goes for Judaism.

So go!

Rather, Judaism should be reduced to its essential elements, not
burdened with a man-made extensive halakhah. =A0
Then go make your own Judaism, and get followers AND LEAVE US ALL
ALONE.

It is for the Orthodox either to reject the other Jews

The other Jews do not advocate your religion. I see nobody clamoring
to "find out what God really wants" or anyone except YOU going on and
on about "scientific facts unknown to the Pharisees" blah blah blah.
Do you?

Who exaclty likes your ideas?

Name ten men.

Moreover, you refuse to answer. I realize you want to be the new Pope
of Judaism. But we do not accept you!

Orthodox cannot claim that I am a Jew and therefore
subject to their halakhah, and this position is taken
by Conservative and Reform Jews everywhere.

Can you stop this tirade about the Orthodox? Why tell me? I aint
Orthodox! I do not care whether they accept, love, worship, or reject
you! I do not care if they put you on a postage stamp or burn you in
effigy in the public square of Monsey. I just do not care. Has
nothing at all to do with this discussion.

I dare you to fnd one follower for any of this.

There was a leading Conservative rabbi who used to post
here until he gave up on the group.  His position was
not the same as mine, but agreed on the historical points.

Leading? By what criteria? Just to buttress your assertions? Come
on.
Nobody knows what that means.

I did not ask that. I asked for a follower of your complete take,
your desire to rewrite all of Judaism and to bother about "what God
really wants."

You can say no. If you do not have a real answer do not bullcrap me.
Just say "no one."

Conservative Judaism officially accepts that some version
of the Documentary Hypothesis is correct, which is the
same point I am making about the origin of the Torah.

But it is irrelevant and nobody gives a crap about it. Has nothing to
do with law. Nobod cares about origins.

THE PEOPLE ACCEPTED THIS CONSTITUTION AND THOSE WHO INTERPRETED IT.

You do not. Fine. Go find followers and get off your soapbox.

Do something productive about this.

For example, I believe in observing Shabbath. =A0But I do not go
along with either the restrictions put in by the rabbis, nor do
I go along with the ways around Shabbath observance they put in
to get around the letter of the law while violating the spirit.
Pauline.  Spirit of the Law?
Good God man.
"observing sabbath" is not your private domain to define.  Go and make
your new religion and stop all of this.


Well - see - in an issue not related to your beloved DH, you have no
repsonse. See?

Where is your intellectual superiority over me now?

Uh. Huh.

Jacko
.