Re: Jewish courts in the UK

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 02:17:13 +0000 (UTC), Eli Grubman
<eli.grubman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:29:38 +0000 (UTC), "Henry Goodman"
<henry.goodman@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"Eli Grubman" <eli.grubman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:b3v4r3hbbtidv58lj4efchddbmd7s404b4@xxxxxxxxxx
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 22:43:05 +0000 (UTC), "Henry Goodman"
<henry.goodman@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"D.M. Procida" <real-not-anti-spam-address@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
in
message

news:1ic7zmg.1csu1527ffu6jN%real-not-anti-spam-address@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
.uk...
Recent remarks made by the Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of
Canterbury have caused controversy. See:

<http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7239283.stm>

if you're not aware of this issue.

In the light of this, I have been reading a little about the
Jewish
courts that operate here, and basically, I'm simply not sure
what's
actually new in what he's saying. Maybe it's just the law I don't
really
understand.

What formal relation, if any, is there between the Jewish courts
and
the
rest of the legal system in the UK? Is it different in Scottish
law?


The Jewish courts, e.g. the London Beth Din, will settle monetary
disputes between 2 jews provided both agree to be bound by the
decision. In English law this is binding arbitration and there is
no
special provision for Jewish courts.
More important are the issues of marriage and divorce. A Jewish
marriage will be recognised by English law (I think Scotland is the
same) if the Rabbi (or whoever) conducting the marriage is licensed
to
perform marriages; after the religious ceremony the bride and groom
have to sign a register before 2 witnesses. I think this is
essentially the same as for Church marriages.

Indeed.

Jewish divorces are
effectively not recognised by the courts and a normal civil divorce
is
required in addition. A law was passed in 2002 which gives judges
the
power, when dissolving a marriage performed by Jewish rites, to
require the parties to obtain a get (Jewish divorce) before the
civil
divorce is made absolute.

The (civil) divorce is now conditional upon a get? Or is the
judge's
"power" to require it discretionary?

Eli

AFAIK the judge's power is discretionary.

That would make sense. Otherwise someone who got married before a
Rabbi

Not so important here, but ftr, it's not the rabbi who makes a
marriage kosher so much as the witnesses. The rabbi is like the
instruction book who makes sure that the couple does the proper
things, but even if they were to get some parts wrong, if they did
other parts right and there are two (kosher?) witnesses, they're
married. I guess the rabbi could be considered one of the witnesses,
but there was a bunch of discussion about that that I don't well
remember.

and subsequently left the faith (or who was never in the faith,
if that's possible) would be forced to obtain a get before being able
to finalise a divorce.

What's wrong with that? If someone bought a car or bought a lot of
things on his charge card when he lived in the UK and then moved to
Nepal, wouldn't he still be obligated to pay the debts he incurred in
the UK?

What kind of a slimeball would marry someone as a Jew, than shirk the
responsibilities of a Jew later when it will hurt his wife the most?

No, you can stop believing in or practicing Judaism and you can
convert into an alien religion, but even though the term is used, you
can't convert out of being a Jew. Judaism is not primarily a faith.
Primarily, it is following Jewish law, and the law says iiuc that when
a man finds his wife unfavorable, he should give her a get. So he
damn-well should.

But it leads me to wonder - what considerations would the (probably
non-Jewish) judge take into account when making a decision?

That came to my mind too. I would hope that all that would be
necessaray at most was that the wife asked for it. But seeing the
kind of cruddy things some US judges do, I won't hold my breath.

Eli

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Rev. W. WEINER / Summit, NJ
    ... In many places very knowledgeable people who had no formal ordination carried out virtually all the functions that a Rabbi would, ... I won't comment on the legality of a marriage performed by a Shochet from a secular law point of view, but feel free to ask me privately regarding the Jewish law aspects. ... Stephanie Weiner wrote: ...
    (soc.genealogy.jewish)
  • Re: Jewish courts in the UK
    ... I have been reading a little about the Jewish ... The Jewish courts, e.g. the London Beth Din, will settle monetary ... More important are the issues of marriage and divorce. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Jewish courts in the UK
    ... I have been reading a little about the Jewish ... courts that operate here, and basically, I'm simply not sure what's ... More important are the issues of marriage and divorce. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Jewish courts in the UK
    ... I have been reading a little about the Jewish ... courts that operate here, and basically, I'm simply not sure what's ... More important are the issues of marriage and divorce. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Jewish courts in the UK
    ... In English law this is binding arbitration and there is ... More important are the issues of marriage and divorce. ... same) if the Rabbi conducting the marriage is licensed ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
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