Re: Shanghai survior update

On Jan 29, 8:24 pm, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 16:58:31 +0000 (UTC), DoD <danskisan...@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:





On Jan 25, 10:28 am, mm <NOPSAMmm2...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:09:13 +0000 (UTC), "ilaboo"

<plen...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"cindys" <cste...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:479899ec$0$7142$4c368faf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

"ilaboo" <plen...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:fna1f9$3j1$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sam

entered nursing home--last time I saw him he looked ok for his age. Read
inJewish Weekly about Rabbi Bern?--or something like that  who took his
whole Yashiva to Vilna and ultimately to Shanghai--article describes
exactly what Sam told me--I suspect Sam was part of this Yashiva.

Not to judge anyone and not to open old wounds--nor have I done any real
studies on this issue--other than reading a book by Bruno Bettelhime
about not fighting back--just  curious why apparently none did from this
Yashiva --I dont think this is a question for Sam at this point of his
life--
-------
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking why the yeshiva
students didn't become partisans and fight the Nazis?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

in a way yes--or join the Russian army

Neither of those are very good choices.

Although one might idealistically believe that more people fighting
the Germans would cause them to lose sooner, this is mostly true if
those people know what to do and how to survive without being caught.

Both the Polish partisans and the Russian army were very antisemitic.
I have a book, written by a Jewish partisan, that I haven't read yet,
but the cover iirc, refers to its being impossible to fight with the
Polish partisans, because of their hatred for Jews.

Like I say, I haven't read it yet, but I can imagine that the Jewish
group he eventually fought with had other disadvantages that the
Polist partisans didn't.  While they could forage in a Polish farm and
take fruit or an animal to eat, and the Polish farmer would be willing
to take the loss, if he had reason to believe the foragers were Jews,
I can well imagine him shooting at them or even notifying the nzis
that they were near.   Same thing if someone was walking through the
woods for any reason and saw a camp that he could tell was used by
Jews.  

If you want, I will find the book and give you the name.

If you are in Virginia, you can stop by Virgnia Military Institute, I
think it is, whose students fought for the South, at a well-known
battle a few miles south of VMI, and they get a lot of praise (at
least from the pro-South) for doing pretty well in the battle, because
they were young and not well-trained (although IIRC they lost and some
of them were killed).  But these were students at a *military*
academy, who at least had been trained how to fire and clean a gun.
Plus they had guns.

I don't know where the guy who wrote the book I have got his gun, if
he had one, but guns and ammunition I'm sure were no longer for sale
after the Germans arrived.  Even buying camping tents, or canvas to
make tents would have aroused suspicion, and while a store owner might
tell no one if they were Poles, if they were Jews, he might send
someone to call the Germans while the Jews were still in the store.

I really should read the book and see if I have a handle on the
problems they faced.

IIRC, I can recommend the movie "Red Dawn" to get a cinematic view of
some of the problems, especially the first half of the movie.
Although that movie is set in the US in the 70's or 80's.

Weird... I had just finished getting a lesson on Judaism and not
getting into fights unless it is neccesary and you have national
unity....

Well, no one would doubt that fighting the nzis was permitted,

Midah k'neged midah (which I originally thought of as kinda like
karma) I
was told is really about revenge, retribution and punishment.

but
that doesn't mean everyone has to do it.

I know...I was just noting what I learned about responses over the
years..

The example with kings showed the Israelites to being very
pragmatic... Originally they weren't going
to fight until they knew they were going to get looted and not just
pay a tribute. Pretty practical considering they were outnumbered.

Then after the revolts that failed there was a shift to not fight ,
The success of Yavneh showed that to be
wise.

After the holocaust the Israelis went back to fighting when necessary
like Ahab. I was told that
Al ithalel hoger kemephateach is part of that spirit.

This is a condensation of all I was told....

David
















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