Re: How Kosher Was Your Turkey?

On Nov 29, 5:39 am, "cindys" <cste...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"BlackMonk" <BlackM...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

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"cindys" <cste...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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FTR, Empire chicken is free roaming and is not given antibiotics,
hormones, etc. I never asked if it is different for the turkeys. A number
of years ago, (before Agriprocessors), I was reading all sorts of
negative things in _Vegetarian Times_ about how the Empire Chicken
company tortured its chickens and cut off their beaks and their toes and
put them in little cages etc just like the treif chickens. I phoned
Empire and was told that this information was completely untrue, that the
chickens were free roaming etc, AND that it was not the first time
_Vegetarian Times_ had printed such falsehoods, and despite the fact that
the editor had been presented with the truth on more than one occasion,
he persisted in disseminating the falsehood. For whatever reason, Empire
was not overly worked up about it told me they had no interest in a
lawsuit. I wish they would have sued.

Two questions:

1. Was Empire's denial backed up by an independent source?

Silly me. I always thought the burden of proof was on the accuser. In the
USA, people are assumed innocent until proven guilty. But yes, the OU rabbi
who certifies them would have backed them up, as chickens who have had their
beaks and claws cut off before slaughter would be considered halachically
treif. Or perhaps you should ask our own Joel Shurkin who posted as a
follow-up to my post that he did an article on the subject and *he*
performed an investigation. I would be willing to bet that any concerned
citizen could probably schedule a look-see at the Empire Chicken barnyard.
It's not a secret. It's not some clandestine operation that's going.

Now that I've answered your question, how about if you answer mine: Why did
you ask if Empire's denial was backed up by an independent source rather
than asking if the _Vegetarian Times_ accusation was backed up by an
independent source? Why are the vegans/vegetarians/PETA with their
anti-meat/antisemitic agenda always being given the benefit of the doubt
while the Jewish/kosher company is always presumed to be guilty as accused
until they provide some sort of *proof* to vindicate themselves ?

2. What was theVegetarianTimes story based upon?

A desire to convince people to become vegetarians (or validate that decision
in those who already are vegetarians) by saying/doing whatever it takes to
convince people that the meat industry (and the Jewish meat industry in
particular) is evil and committing unspeakable evils on animals. Kind of
like the campaign where PETA likened chicken slaughterhouses to Auschwitz.
And I think antisemitism plays a role as well.



If they had a source that they believed was valid, is it reasonable to
expect them to ask Empire and then say "Well, they said they didn't do it,
so that's the end of that."

Oh please. The _Vegetarian Times_ had NO source for their claims nor did
they claim to. The editor was writing whatever he wanted off the top of his
head, and in the world of veganism, the ends often justify the means.
Again, I find interesting the suggestion that the claims of the _Vegetarian
Times_ should be accepted at face value while the burden is on Empire to
*prove* that these accusations are false. I can't help but wonder why you
didn't write:

"Empire should have demanded that _TheVegetarianTimes_ provide their
proof. It's not reasonable for _TheVegetarianTimes_ to say 'Well, we say
they're doing it, so that's the end of that!"



On the other hand, if a reasonable case could be made for the validity of
Empire's denial, it was dishonest not to at least mention it next to the
accusations.

Exactly right. The editor of the _Vegetarian Times_ was being dishonest.
There was no case to be made. All that needed to happen was that Joe Shnook
needed to go down to Empire and look at the chickens with their intact beaks
and feet wandering around inside the barn to see that the accusation was
false. And if that happened, then perhaps _TheVegetarianTimes_ would have
printed a retraction (they may have even done so at some point), but then
after some time had passed, they would make the accusation again and hope
nobody remembered what happened the time before.

Empire easily could have sued the _Vegetarian Times_ but (according to the
person I spoke to at Empire) apparently didn't think _TheVegetarianTimes_
was being read by or influencing a sufficient number of people to make it
worth their expense or their bother to do so.

So now that I've answered your question, how about if you answer mine: Why
is it that every time a Jew is accused of some wrongdoing by some antisemite
with an agenda, there is always some politically correct Jew waiting around
the corner, eager to to defend our enemies' position, insisting that the
"burden of proof" is on the accused rather than on the accuser?
Best regards,
---Cindy S.

The accusers, in this case all
vegs do not believe there's such a thing as a kosher slaughterhouse.
It's an oxymoron to the wholly earth viewpoint, esp today
when 80-90% of our grain is fed to livestock, including poultry,
causing unnecessary clearing of land and subsequent loss of carbon
absorption via photosynthesis. Instead of slinging racist
insinuation,
i'd accept the fact its not how you slaughter them, its the inhumanity
of unecessary,
slaughter in the 1st place.,and environmentally dumb to its'worldwide
impacts.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: How Kosher Was Your Turkey?
    ... things in _Vegetarian Times_ about how the Empire Chicken company tortured ... cages etc just like the treif chickens. ... For whatever reason, Empire was not overly ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: How Kosher Was Your Turkey?
    ... negative things in _Vegetarian Times_ about how the Empire Chicken ... put them in little cages etc just like the treif chickens. ... and feet wandering around inside the barn to see that the accusation was ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: How Kosher Was Your Turkey?
    ... negative things in _Vegetarian Times_ about how the Empire Chicken ... put them in little cages etc just like the treif chickens. ... Empire and was told that this information was completely untrue, ... and feet wandering around inside the barn to see that the accusation was ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: How Kosher Was Your Turkey?
    ... person I spoke to at Empire) apparently didn't think _The Vegetarian Times_ ... Empire, so they lose nothing. ... "burden of proof" is on the accused rather than on the accuser? ... I have notice that the anti O, and especially the anti Charedi attacks by ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: How Kosher Was Your Turkey?
    ... etc just like the treif chickens. ... I phoned Empire and was told that this ... AND that it was not the first time _Vegetarian Times_ had printed such ... falsehoods, and despite the fact that the editor had been presented with the ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)