Re: Old news, new show: Billy Graham on Jews


"Andy Katz" <amkatz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:c0d2d35c5m5l6jtumgbkc4gfkgodgmo9ah@xxxxxxxxxx
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 17:35:20 +0000 (UTC), "Dan Kimmel"
<daniel.kimmel@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Andy, I'm going to give you one more chance to prove your arguing
honestly.
I said that it's false to claim that "all criticism of Israel" is
pro-Arafat, not that Carter's book was not pro-Arafat. Would you like to
retract your erroneous assertion?

Slow down just a little here, partner. This is just a conversation
between two people. Neither of us needs to give the other any chances
to prove anything.

To the contrary. You attribute false statements to me. Are you going to
retract them or not?

All I can do is try to tell you what I see given the facts at hand,
based on what small research I have time for, or what others
contribute. It would make no sense whatever for me to waste my time by
arguing that what appears to me to be an octopus is really an
airplane.

You have argued dishonestly, attributing to me things I did not say. I gave
you the opportunity to correct this. You declined.



There are also quite a few tangents below, so I'm going to skip over
them: e.g. I don't intend to argue the USSR with you, seeing as it's
a) a country that by your account played no significant role in the
treaty process and b) no longer exists as such.

In other words, you think the USSR had a legitimate role in Middle East
negotiations. I note your concession with regret.




"The security of Israel must be guaranteed. The Arabs must acknowledge
openly and specifically that Israel is a reality and has a right to
exist in peace, behind secure and recognized borders, and with a firm
Arab pledge to terminate any further acts of violence against the
legally constituted nation of Israel."

Wow, what a HARSH condemnation of Palestinian terrorism.

Not.

Exactly. It's mealy-mouthed at best.

Now why would Carter hold fire against Palestinian terrorism?

All decent people are against terrorism. Why do you give Carter a pass?

Reminds me of an argument I had with a British friend just prior to
the UK's retaking of the Falklands. In one breath she insisted that
the US was remiss in not supporting Britain's military effort from the
get go, while in another she insisted that Britain didn't need that
war right then (the economies of both Great Britain and Argentina were
in the proverbial toilet in the early 80s).

I argued back that the US was trying to negotiate a peaceful
resolution to the Falklands's crisis until nearly the last minute. And
you can't effectively negotiate between two warring factions if you're
obviously a partisan for one side.

So it is with Carter. For better or worse he sees himself as a
potential facilitator for a lasting peace accord between Israel and
the Palestinians. Will he succeed? I admit, I'm a bit skeptical. But
given the role he's trying to play it would be counterproductive, not
to mention absurb, for him to single out the Palestinians for
condemnation one day, then say "trust me" to them the next.

Given that he's a Palestinian partisan who misses no opportunity to condemn
Israel, your argument is specious. He obviously has no problem condemning
Israel.

In fact many here and elsewhere seem to expect the US to play a role
in "fixing" the problems of the ME, yet we become angry when our
leaders, past and present, fail to demonstrate the same degree of
partisanship for our side that we do.

In fact, Carter is anti-Israel, as he has demonstrated time and again. I
would advise ANY Israeli leader to ignore any "peace" initiative that Carter
is now promoting.

Now, I believe that the issue of Israel's "right to exist" is a red
herring: only *Israel* can guarantee Israel's right to exist. But
there it is, anyway.

Wrt terrorism, Carter writes in the Guardian:

"Obviously, I condemn acts of terrorism or violence against innocent
civilians, and I present information about the casualties on both
sides."

http://books.guardian.co.uk/print/0,,329660067-99939,00.html


On BOTH sides? You mean when Palestiians *target* Israeli civilians it's
exactly the same as when Palestinians are killed when Israel defends
itself?

Perhaps he was referring to Baruch Goldstein, Yehuda Etzion and Boaz
Heinemann, to name a few?

Are you out of your mind? Are you claiming that -- like the Palestinian
terrorists -- these lunatics were acting at the behest of the Israeli
*government*?

With this you confirm that you are a *dishonest* partisan, not at all
interested in a secure and peaceful Israel.



[snip]


Either way, the dirtier you paint the USSR the smarter it makes Carter
for using it as a cudgel to motivate Sadat, right?

Wrong. Carter was doing no such thing.

Okay, I'll ask again, if it wasn't to facilitate the process and
provide Sadat with motivation, why do *you* think Carter tried to
bring in the USSR?

Because, exactly like you, he thought they had a legtimate role to play.


No, Dan. I'm not being obtuse. I'm just having a hard time keeping up
with your feint and parry. First you say Carter "went further than the
Arabs." I ask in what way, then you say the Arabs' demand was the
destruction of Israel. A demand Carter has never echoed. Now you're
back to his having called for a Palestinian state before the Arab
nations did so.

You're being obtuse. The Arabs were not calling for a Palestinian state.
They were calling for the destruction of Israel.

*Carter* was calling for a Palestinian state, led by his bosom buddy
Arafat.

Right. Do you deny that Arafat was, for the Palestinians, the man who
had to sign off on any peace treaty?

Do you deny that when he had the opportunity to do so, under Clinton, he
refused?



Okay. Let's assume for a moment that no Arab nation called for a
Palestinian state in the [late] 70s. Even if that's true, a majority
in both the Arab, Israeli and western world now believe that a
Palestinian state is one prerequisite for a lasting peace.

So you're accusing Carter of prescience here?

And that's bad because....?

I'm accusing Carter of being a pro-Arafat hypocrite, and you don't seem
to
be able to refute this.

Are you saying that the two-state solution is unviable? If so, then
what? And, if not, then why are you criticizing Carter for,
apparently, championing it when no one else was?

I ignore the rest of your post. I am no longer interested in playing your
DIShonest game in which Carter and Palestinian terrorists are given every
benefit of the doubt, but Israel may be held to standards that apply to no
other nation or entity.


.

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