Re: R. Eliyahu calls for carpet bombing of Gaza

On Jun 3, 4:25 am, amk...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (Andy Katz) wrote:
On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 13:29:00 +0000 (UTC), k...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (James



Kahn) wrote:
In <q85v535j8ph7jf3pffsnrechmvgqqk1...@xxxxxxx> amk...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (Andy Katz) writes:

Returning to the original thrust of this thread, my question is, did
Shimeon and Levy suffer any negative fall-out from the massacre they
perpetrated?

Did not Yakov later scold them thus, "You have troubled me, to make me
odious among the inhabitants of the land"?,

Shall Israel risk becoming odious among the inhabitants of the world?

For what gain?

To avenge Ramban's comparative impotence?

To survive as a nation?

That's a valid point, James. But do the Kassam launches really
threaten Israel's survival as a nation? I can't mind-read Hamas, but
I would ask, what is their motive for provoking Israel thus? If it's
in any way analogous to the WTC attack, then threatening national
survival isn't an issue. Sure al Qaeda would like to destroy the US,
but I don't believe the WTC attack was an attempt to destroy us so
much as a provocation towards massive retaliation against the Arab
world. It was an attempt to create a state of war between the west and
the Muslim world. The Bush administration obliged them in part by
using it as a pretext to invade Iraq, creating both a breeding ground
and training center for radicalized Sunnis.

Agreed.. partly.
The WTC attack was not the *reason* for Cheney c.s. to invade Iraq, it
was the pretext, or rather the wave of nationalism and fear-mongering
was the means. Although I don't believe that the White House and the
Pentagon are completely innocent of nine eleven, I will not go into
that in order to avoid that discussion.

The history of war, however, shows that terrorist actions such as the
ones mentioned are rarely, if ever, meant to "destroy". They are meant
to cause fear and to tire the enemy, to cause division and confusion,
but not to destroy.
The very need to resort to the activity of terrorism/guerrilla/call it
what you like is born out of not *having* the power to destroy. No
(once-) terrorist parties on the Palestinian side have reached
anything on a political level until they stopped using violence or
promised they would. Fatah is now the establishment.

(For the sake of historical accuracy, let's not forget that it was
Israël that actually supported Hamas in the past in its quality of
Fatah's/PLO's enemy ("the enemy of my enemy is my friend"), and in
order to turn a secular conflict (over land) into a religious
conflict.)


The Bush administration did do some things right by invading
Afghanistan and casting the Taliban out. Had they stayed the course,
not diverted resources into Iraq, al Qaeda might no longer exist at
all. That was a focused response, and perhaps that is the model Israel
ought to use.

The war in Afghanistan wasn't effective at all ~ at least not for what
it's sold to be effective for.
It's a mystery why so many people in the West seem to think that this
was a legitimate, effective, or necessary thing to do. Let's go back
in time. The Taliban, once applauded by us for, although being
primitive and cruel, bringing stability to a country that had known
war for decades, were asked to give up "UBL" in 2001. The Taliban then
asked the White House to show them proof that Osama was involveed with
nine eleven. This proof, as we all know, has never been provided.
Instead, the US invaded, inviting the anarchy-loving militia's that
had helped turn Afghanistan into chaos for the last few decades, to
join (under the hilarious name of "Northern Coalition").

People may wonder if secretly dropped special forces (most people are
under the impression that the US has the most powerful army that ever
existed on this planet) were not a better option to arrest one guy and
a few other donkeys than all-out blitzkrieg with bommers and all, but
since 2001 reason has, it seems, been partly suspended.

But this all leads me to wonder, what on earth is the State of Israël
supposed to learn from a place like Afghanistan and from the way some
countries have tried to bomb it into 'democracy'? Israël can't even
'restore order' in a comparatively tiny place like the South of
Lebanon.

This thread did get me into reading more into the messy subject of
halacha on war, very interesting subject in itself.
I understand R. Eliyahu's consideration, but it's always nice to be
the halachist in his study, in stead of the colonel that has to give
orders to do the actual killing.

Ceterum censeo that the Palestinians should all just convert to
Judaism. :) Solves two problems.

***

Herman
/eu/nl/rotterdam

.

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