Re: Israeli rabbinate sanity


"KarenElizabeth" <karenelizabeth3@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1179788802.534457.250090@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On May 21, 6:47 pm, "cindys" <cste...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Eliyahu" <lro...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:1179783863.408399.306360@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

On May 21, 1:17 pm, "J J Levin" <jjle...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
You're not Jewish anymore

Rabbinical judge rules that woman who converted to Judaism 15 years
ago
is
no longer Jewish because she failed to observe mitzvot; her children
also
declared non-Jews

Rivkah Lubitch Published: 05.16.07, 15:42 / Israel Jewish Scene

A rabbinical judge ruled recently that a woman who converted to
Judaism
15
years ago was no longer Jewish, and that her children, who were born
after
she had already converted, were also not Jewish.

Moreover, the judge stated that the woman's marriage was invalid, and
that
there was therefore no need to grant her a divorce.

Full story:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3400900,00.html

Jay

Assuming the story is accurate,

I promise you, there is a lot more to this story.

Please share the facts that you claim to know, that enable you to
*promise* us that there is more to this story.
--------
I regret having gotten involved in the first place, but since I did, I will
post this link, which does provide "more to this story."

http://chareidi.shemayisrael.com/archives/TSaconvert.htm

And here is a link to the Jerusalem Post article which confirms that the
woman was not observing halacha at the time of her conversion:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?c=JPArticle&cid=1178708629648&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
[...]
"The woman had come to Atia for a divorce from her husband. But Atia ruled
that she was not a Jew, since she had not intended at the time of conversion
to adhere to halacha. Therefore, she did not need a get (writ of divorce),
since Jewish law does not recognize the marriage of a gentile to a Jew, he
said. "

[...]

I have another post currently in moderation, which I'm sorry I submitted.
The reality is that I have neither the time nor personal interest in the
outcome of this case to battle out this thread. There are a lot of politics
between the rabbis involved in this issue, and much of the politics is not
related to conversions.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.




There

it sounds like the start down a
slippery slope, deciding if someone can be "tentatively" Jewish based
on how she conducts herself over the next few decades.

That is not what happened at all. As far as the Israeli rabbanut is
concerned, this woman was NEVER Jewish. There was a problem with the
legitimacy of the court that performed the conversion in the first place
[and if I had to take a guess, I would suspect that the problem was that
this "special court" was performing quickie conversions for people who
were
unwilling to commit to torah and mitzvos and therefore did not qualify
for
legitimate O conversions performed by the regular rabbanut,

The person who headed the court was identifed in the article, and was
head of a hesder yeshiva and a former National Religious Party Knesset
member. Do you *know* that he was *performing quickie conversions*
with the knowledge that people were *unwilling* to perform mitzvot and
that they *did not qualify* for *legitimate O conversions* Otherwise,
wouldn't you call what you're saying *lashon hara*?

so after the
rabbanut turned them down, they approached the *special court* and paid a
sum of money to convert in name only.]

So, again, you're saying that the rabbi identified in the article was
paid money to convert people with the knowledge that they did not
qualify for conversion? Please, please, tell us your basis for that.


"The judge in fact ruled that all conversions signed by the special
conversion court were invalid, because the court was headed by "heretics"
and "criminals".

So, it's not only this one particular woman's conversion that has been
deemed invalid. Rather, it's every conversion performed by this
particular
court that has been deemed invalid. Unfortunately, the article provides
very
few details.

The first
question that comes to mind, though, is whether this reasoning would
also be likely to be applied to those of us who weren't raised in an
observant family or who didn't remain or become observant throughout
our entire lives?

Not at all.

Then why did this same group of *rabbis* on the beit din conclude that
not only was the woman who coverted not Jewish, but also that her ex-
husband -- a BORN JEW -- could never be married by the O rabbinate?
Sounds like they're applying their so-called power on born Jews to me!

If we thought that patrilinial Judaism raised a
problem, what will happen when beit dins are asked to decide if the
children of converts (or born Jews, for that matter)
are no longer
Jewish because one of their parents went off the derek.

I'm not sure where you're coming up with that? ... This situation does
not
impact born Jews at all, and it also doesn't impact on anybody who had a
legitimate conversion under the auspices of the Israeli rabbanut.

You mean like a rabbi who was the head of a hesder yeshiva and a
former National Religious Party Knesset member? We've seen how THAT
doesn't work!

Please
don't get suckered into believing that a sincere shomrei torah u'mitzvos
woman had a perfectly legitimate O conversion and then 15 years, she
stopped
observing some or all of the mitzvos and as a result, the Israeli
rabbanut
decided to declare that she was a non-Jew. There is clearly a lot more to
this story than this newspaper article is letting on, and I can almost
guarantee that what went on here is that this *special court* performed
hundreds of illegitimate conversions for people who were never shomrei
torah
u'mitzvos at any point, not before, during, or after their so-called O
"conversions."

How can you guarantee that? What facts do YOU have that none of us
do?

If you're going to say that this woman -- and her kids, who were
raised Jewish all of their lives, and who believed themselves to be
Jewish all of their lives -- is indeed not Jewish, notwithstanding
what facially appeared to be a legitimate conversion, then you must
draw ALL conversions into question. If your maternal grandmother was
a convert, but wasn't so great about going to the mikvah, or indulged
in the occasional bacon cheeseburger, maybe your kids aren't really
Jewish. And neither you nor anyone else has any way of knowing that.
EVERY conversion, and EVERY descendant of a convert, is suspect.

If the rabbanut wants to say *Your conversion is probationary. For
the next 5 years, we're going to be checking up on your mikvah use,
your davening schedule, and conducting random refrigerator checks. If
you don't measure up, there's no final conversion* then let them. But
otherwise, once they say you're a Jew, you're a Jew.

Karen Elizabeth



.

Relevant Pages

  • Hard times at the conversion school
    ... When the teacher begins the explanation on the reciprocal relationship between the Jewish nation and the prophet Jeremiah, Revital, seven months old, has a hard time concealing her impatience. ... The Goltzman family does not want to make any mistakes- they know that in Israel there are no short cuts on the exhausting path toward joining the Jewish nation. ... In Israel today there are three hundred thousand immigrants who came to Israel via the Law of Return and are not considered Jewish according to Jewish law. ... Over the years the government realized that it is not worthwhile to leave the conversion process in the hands of the Rabbinate and that they should speed up the process. ...
    (soc.culture.israel)
  • Indep: When faith isnt enough
    ... children stripped of their Jewish identity in Britain by the Chief ... place at the Jewish Free School in north London. ... Jonathan could not recognise Helen's conversion in Israel 15 years ... The Sagals received hate ...
    (soc.culture.israel)
  • Ind: When faith isnt enough
    ... children stripped of their Jewish identity in Britain by the Chief ... place at the Jewish Free School in north London. ... Jonathan could not recognise Helen's conversion in Israel 15 years ... The Sagals received hate ...
    (soc.culture.jewish)
  • Re: The haredization of the Israeli Rabbinate
    ... "Asher Cohen, a political scientist at Bar Ilan University, also sees ... University (which is known for its Orthodox orientation) admits that, ... "Religious conversion will not do. ... The fact that an Orthodox Jewish intellectual proposes a non-religious ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Damn you, FEDEX! or Nikon D40 lost in Springfield, MO blackhole.
    ... the 2 mp Mavica he had been using with a Nikon D40. ... After shopping around, he got me to order one for him. ... The shipper had it insured, but from what I have read it could take weeks to sort this crap out. ... You may get your insurance from FedEx and a couple weeks later they find it and deliver it. ...
    (alt.photography)