Re: Hitchens on religion

Steve Goldfarb <slg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Indeed. But one doesn't posken halacha from the Talmud. So regardless of
whether one "questions the directives" or not, an O Jew obeys, correct?

If he chooses to be O. But that's just saying that someone who chooses
to be O acts O to the extent he toes that party line. Circular and
vacuus. The question was why people choose to be O, or C, or Renewal, or
Catholic, or Bolshevic, or any other stance on religious topics.

Nor does the behavior of religious people (such as Christian reliance
on "Faith", as they define the term) impugn the ability to have a
justified belief in one's religion.

You seem to be making two different points with this sentence, which has
consistently been causing me confusion. Are you asserting that Christians
cannot have a justified belief, or simply that they do not? ...

They they don't want one. They might have a belief they justified for
themselves, but most churches laud the leap of faith. Tertullian even
went as far as saying that the illogic of Christianity is /why/ he
believed it. "[P]rorsus credible est, quia ineptum est -- it is certain
because it is impossible."

have Faith because their beliefs are not justifiable, while you have a
"justified belief" which is different from Faith because your beliefs
(being correct) are justifiable? ...

Justification doesn't mean "proof". Proof of the sense you want doesn't
exist -- you can never be 100% certain of anything other than your own
existence (because if you're wrong, then you're not there to be wrong
anyway). Cogito ergo sum -- I think, therefore I am" - Descartes.

I am saying that the level of justification I have for my version of
Judaism is high enough that only the clinically insane would worry about
that gap. Much like wondering if this time around the rock won't fall
if I let go of it. Or like being so philosophically inclined they can't
tie their own shoes or otherwise deal with the real world.

....
Earlier we discussed the idea of whether "good" is something different
from "doing what God commanded." I understand you believe they are
different. Am I correct, though, that many (most?) O Jews believe they are
one and the same? I think that statement has been made here many times.

Yes there are.

But nevertheless, let's take your position -- God commanded us to be
"good," but "good" is something other than simply following the other
commandments. Right? So "good" is something that we humans determine based
on our understandfng of our purpose, our senses, our emotions, etc...

No. We try to determine good using known reliable sources, gut instinct,
and other such things. What we try to determine is an objective standard
defined by G-d's purpose in creating us.

To say it another way, I think we both agree that "good" is following
one's principles of morality and values (or something like that)...

By definition. It's content free -- being moral means following
morality.

difference seems to be whether or not those values must be in relation to,
or as revealed from, a god of some sort...

Because, again, you can't explain to me what "good" means. Why, to your
mind, is "Thou shalt not murder" more good than "Thou shalt kill on
whim."

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

--
Micha Berger Today is the 43rd day, which is
micha@xxxxxxxxxxx 6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507 good for all mankind?
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: The Kosher Pork
    ... I can't think of another reason why he is not satisfied with saying "This is what I believe and I am convinced it is the right way (which, by the way, is a statement of faith)". ... I simply cannot fathom why saying "my personal experience in observing Shabbast and all aspects of halacha fully justifies my continued practice and justifies my FAITH in God." ... Why you have the burning desire to elevate that justification to the level of scientific grade proof is beyond me. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Darwins Appendix
    ... it'd be you saying your beliefs regarding Torah aren't faith, ... One does not "obtain" postulates - one postulates them. ... the manner in which the justification was obtained. ... When I say I have FAITH in something, ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: Endurantists vs Perdurantism
    ... It remains the case that actually saying which is which has nothing to ... Suppose, that there are basic empirical beliefs, that is, emperical ... the justification of a supposed basic empirical belief depends on the ... Nobody is forcing him to rob banks. ...
    (sci.logic)
  • Re: Science versus religion fnord
    ... The justification itself though is somewhat interesting. ... There are solid biological reasons for this. ... community. ... This is a little long-winded way of saying that I still am not sure ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: Hitchens on religion
    ... If he chooses to be O. But that's just saying that someone who chooses ... went as far as saying that the illogic of Christianity is /why/ he ... Justification doesn't mean "proof". ... Why should God's purposes be regarded as morally binding upon us? ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
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