Re: Chickens vs. cows (was Re: Beth HaWaadh Permits Eating of Kitniyoth)

On Apr 16, 2:30 am, Susan S <otoeremovet...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In soc.culture.jewish.moderated I read this message from "Giorgies E.
Geshahnna" <geshah...@xxxxxxxxxxx>:





On Apr 15, 4:18 am, mos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
"Joel Shurkin" <jshur...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
mos...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
Joel Shurkin <jshur...@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
Susan S <otoeremovet...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> said:

snip

How many people do you know who are so easily confused?
Honestly, do you go around saying, "Stupid Jews, don't know
wheat from corn or rice."?

Same ones who think chickens look like cows, i guess.

Joel, it's one-liners like this that make me despair of you. The
reasons for adding fowl to the rules of meat-and-milk-mixtures has
_nothing_ to do with "chickens look like cows" and you know it. Or
you should because it's been discussed here many times.

Cows need slaughter. Chickens need slaughter. Blood of cows is
forbidden. Blood of chickens is forbidden. Both are precessed in the
kitchen the same way; slaughtered, salted, soaked and rinsed. At this
point the rules diverge but they've been handled together for quite
a while.

I don't know about you, Moshe, but I don't slaughter either cows or
chickens in my kitchen

I don't slaughter chickens in my kitchen either. But I do buy my
chickens the same place I buy my cow meat. And either I or the
butcher had to _process_ them the same way. The possibility at least
that some people would consider what was OK for one to be OK for the
other is not outlandish.

and there no longer is any reason for chicken to be considered the
same as meat. But no one appears to have the courage to actually
say so.

Do you really think Rabbinic legislation should consider "Where does
Joel Shurkin process his chickens?"? I know you're egotistical (we
all are) but please, some proportion. A general rule is made for the
general populace.

I get sarcastic but you get the point.

No I don't. Your snide remark "who think chickens look like cows"
means to me, that you don't care what the real reason is, you'll
just phrase it in a way to make them look stupid.

In actuality, with modern modes of meat acquisition and consumption
the confusion is even more apt to occur. We get our meat from the
butcher or even from the grocery store or supermarket all ready
prepared and cut up. Now consider an ordinary housewife, busy tired
and harried, preparing Shabbath foods on a short winter's Friday. She
takes some raw meat from the refrigerator intending to season and cook
it. It is in fact a slice of boneless veal cutlet, but she, thinking
it be a slice of boneless chicken cutlet ,she braises it in a cream
based sauce without giving it any thought. But now that the hazal in
their Godly inspired foresight have forbidden fowl with milk, this
mixup will not occur even in modern times when it is far more likely
than would have been in their own times when meat came from an animal
instead of from the grocer's freezer case.

Do you do much cooking? I have never, ever confused one type of meat for
another and I have been cooking for a long time, in rushed and relaxed
circumstances.

Now we are getting somewhere. I see you do understand the point, but
your objection is that you, as an individual, have a long record of
not making the mistake the law was designed to prevent, and so you are
applying for an exemption. The law does not work that way. To take a
contemporary example from lcal secular civil law: the speed limit on a
highway is set by law after cosultation with engineers as to what is a
safe speed on this roadvfor the ordinary driver behind the wheel of an
ordinary car. Now you claim that you have a long record of driving way
above this speed, under both relaxed conditions and when in a hurry,
and have never had an accident. and you want an exemption. You will
not get it, and if caught by a policeman you will be issued a summons
and will pay a heavy fine. Your long clean record may reduce the fine
a bit, but it will not excuse you entirely. The difference is that if
you cook your chicken in cream sauce there is no flesh and blood
policeman to issue a summons.

And I have to ask: how do you *know* that you 'have never, ever
confused one type of meat for
another'? Perhaps you really have done so, perhaps even more than
once. But just as you confused the two types of meat before the fact,
you failed to notice the error after the fact. I am not saying this
happened, just that I don't see how you can be so absolutely sure that
it never did happen.

To return to our example: there are special roadways designed for
special safety, such as at Indianappolis, where eligible drivers may
drive at high speeds far in excess of ordinary speed limits. In the
case of kashruth law, there is also such a circumstance where you are
exempt from the law. It is fish, which unless your local custom
forbids it, you may cook it in milk or cream without worrying that it
might lead to someday cooking meat with milk.

So to summarise: Indianapolis Speedway, 150 MPH; FDR Drive, 45 MPH
even if you personally have a long record of accident free driving.
Fish with milk, OK. Chicken with milk forbidden, even if you
personally have a long record of accident free cooking.

Giorgies

.

Relevant Pages

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  • Re: Chickens vs. cows (was Re: Beth HaWaadh Permits Eating of Kitniyoth)
    ... Honestly, do you go around saying, "Stupid Jews, don't know ... reasons for adding fowl to the rules of meat-and-milk-mixtures has ... Blood of chickens is forbidden. ... chickens the same place I buy my cow meat. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
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