Re: Dual Ovens and Such (was Re: The end of the conservative movement...)

On Thu, 8 Mar 2007 14:15:54 +0000 (UTC), "Steve Goldfarb"
<slg@xxxxxxxxx> said:

In <gctru2hono1d6leuo7u7qpvr438t6krg80@xxxxxxx> Yisroel Markov <ey.markov@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

Perhaps, but they seem to be of a different class than the "not using an
oven" case. Issues of measurement are one thing - they're matters of
degree. Adding entire new sets of required or prohibited actions, e.g.,
having two countertops, is another matter entirely in my view.

A non-halakhic humra that people adopt to simplify their lives.

If you really want to simplify your life, then just discard the whole kit
and caboodle.

[sigh] I'm sure you know what I meant - "simplify life while being
observant."

It all comes down to the purpose of
religion, I guess -- if it's just to avoid "step on a crack, break your
momma's back" then you do what you have to do to avoid getting a
thunderbolt from heaven on your head. But I didn't think that was what
Judaism was about, I thought it was about principles.

Now where did the thunderbolt come from? And what the contradiction
between being careful and following principles?

Your statement that one *must* observe the law exactly, no more and no
less, just doesn't make sense to me. Sure I can build on my property
right up to the property line, but why not leave an inch to avoid an
appearance of wanting to encroach on my neighbor's property?

Good question -- the reason you don't want to leave an inch, is because
doing so (potentially) cedes your territory to your neighbor, or at least
creates an easement.

An easement of an inch? In any event, I'm not concerned that God will
grab that inch from me. "For He is not a man..."

Fencing is a better case than building -- you should
put your fence right on the line (or as close as you're allowed to)

"Allowed to?" Hmmm... :-)

you
would nevere put it inside your property lines jsut "to be safe." I'm not
saying you must in fact observe the law exactly, I'm saying you must
STRIVE to observe the law exactly. That's how the law is preserved.

So you say. I say it is preserved by learning. That's why I find
learning to distinguish between halakha and humra so liberating.

How do you know they're the descendants of the cows of yore? You're taking
a chance every time you eat a piece of meat.

Of course. I take a chance every time I get out of bed. So?

So it's irrational to be consumed by a fear that has 1:1,000,000 chance of
occuring while ignoring a threat with a 1:100 chance, as an example. Of
course people do this all the time, it's human nature, but don't claim
that you're being rational by doing so. That behavior is by definition
superstitious. (or phobic)

I don't see how you're quantifying risk here, especially the risk of a
thunderbolt :-)

If you're following a
principle than you're on solid ground, but if you're just afraid of
getting zapped by a wrathful bearded guy on a cloud, then you're taking a
huge risk.

I'm not following.

I'm saying it depends on your worldview -- if you're terribly afraid of a
wrathful god, then yeah, you'd want to walk on eggshells all the time to
avoid offending him. So, we can conclude then, I think, that if someone
walks on eggshells all the time to avoid offending god, that means their
worldview is of a wrathful god and an earth that is some sort of torture
chamber or minefield. OTOH, if your worldview is of a covenant between God
and Man, and that your duty is to obey the covenant no more and no less,
and your God is a fair, duty-bound being, then you would behave
differently, and once again conversely people who behave in that way
communicate the type of God that they believe in.

I don't buy it. My duty is to uphold the Covenant, yes. That doesn't
preclude me from taking extra measures to avoid transgressing it. Same
logic as is behind "fences," except the former are personal (or, at
most, communal), whereas the latter are part of halakha as applied by
the Sages to the real people in a real world. Either way, violating
the extra measure, or even breaking a fence, results in no negative
consequences from the above, AIUI. (Although someone who does so
deliberately - out of spite, as a demonstration, or the like - can be
held to be in violation of a mitzva bein adam le-havero of being a
good neighbor.)

It gets back to the point about property lines -- what's the harm of
"being careful?" Well I'm saying there IS a harm. So, sure - sometimes you
might want to be "stringent," I'm not saying that would never be
appropriate, but it must be weighed against the consequences.

Oh, that's all that you're saying? Then, if you change the above from
"there IS a harm" to "there MAY BE a harm," I'll have no argument with
that statement.

Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Judge, and be prepared to be judged" -- Ayn Rand
.

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