Re: Is he still O?


"Steve Goldfarb" <slg@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:es2t4e$gll$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In <Qj%Eh.7266$Jl.1596@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> "Craig Winchell"
<ganeden@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:


Why not? Why would there even be such a question? However, just because
he's orthodox does not mean he's not a crackpot. The business of gelatin,
or even family minhag on gebrochts, is far less problematic than eating
kitniyus on Pesach for an Ashkenazi. I think eating kitniyus on Pesach,
for
an Ashkenazi who didn't become baal teshuva through Sephardim and adopt
their customs, constitutes a wholesale rejection of a basic tenet of
Judaism, whereas there are halachic precedents, although minority
opinions,
for considering gelatin to be not non-kosher, and rejecting a family
minhag
is not as problematic as rejecting a minhag of virtually everyone from
one's
half of the Jewish nation.

I don't understand your answer. First you say "Why not?" then you say it
would be a "wholesale rejection of a basic tenet of Judaism." Which is it?

BS"D

Gelatin's kashrus is not a matter of custom but halacha. There are
differences in how it's hashed out, but it's halacha. Gebrochts is a matter
of custom of a relatively small group. Kitniyus prohibition as far as
eating is a matter of custom, but of a far larger group, namely all of
Ashkenazic Judaism. Kitniyus is considered binding on all Ashkenazim,
whereas not eating gebrochts is simply a matter of chumra, though it's true
that a chazaka may develop or have developed depending upon the individual
group. A custom of Israel, meaning the Jewish people, is a very strong
custom indeed. A custom of all Ashkenazim or all Sephardim is nearly as
strong.


Also, what basic tenet of Judaism are you referring to? I think you mean
following the custom of your family and neighbors - but is that really a
basic tenet of Judaism? I thought "following the rules" was, and it seems
to me that "following the rules" and "do what your ancestors and neighbors
do" are not necessarily contradictory, but they aren't in any way the same
thing, either.

Some customs are codified in the Shulchan Aruch (with Rema) as to their
universality, others are not.


I guess I have a problem with the idea of rules being both universal and
simultaneously individual/personal. That is, one key premise is that the
rules are universal and God-given, and yet at the same time my rules, your
rules, and the rules of somebody born in Israel are distinctly different,
due only to the accident of where, when, and to whom we happened to be
born. That's the opposite of "universal."

The prohibition against eating kitniyus is a very strong custom universal to
the Ashkenazic world. It's been accepted as strongly binding for many
generations. However, it is well know that it is still just a custom.
That's why things derived from kitniyus are often allowed to be used on
Pesach. For instance, in winemaking, though citric acid is derived from
corn, it is still allowed to be used for kosher l'Pesach wine. Of course,
it could be made from other materials, but in fact it is derived from corn.
Or oil from peanuts can still be used (though it's out of favor right now,
as there are substitutes for it). Getting back, though it's only a custom,
it's binding. Other customs are only binding if one lives in an area where
the customs are publicly kept. Still others are binding only with a chazaka
of some sort, or something like a neder.


So while I accept that people might have customs and those customs might
vary, what I don't buy is this idea that you're bound not only by what God
said but also by what your grandfather happened to do, and if he didn't
eat corn on Pesach then even though some of the most illustrious Jews in
history did do so, nevertheless if you choose to you've become a terrible
sinner who rejects the basic tenets of Judaism.

Not a terrible sinner, just a person who has rejected a custom well known to
be binding on that person. I think I called him a crackpot, not a sinner,
and not because he rejected his grandfather's custom, but because he
rejected a custom binding upon Ashkenazim. Interestingly, though, an
Ashkenazic woman who marries a Sephardic man takes on his customs, at least
publicly.


Anyway, to your answer above, how is kitniyot any different from gelatin?
If your father ate it you can, unless your neighbors don't, if your father
didn't or your neighbors don't then you can't. Right?

I think I answered that above, in the first paragraph of the response.

Craig Winchell


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