Re: The New Judaism (This IS a long rant)

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007 07:23:17 +0000 (UTC), moshes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx said:

Yisroel Markov <ey.markov@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
moshes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx said:
"cindys" <cstein1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

snip

I really don't think the gedolim believe the women can't think for
themselves. I think they want to ensure they don't give them any food for
thought because educated people think for themselves, and once the woman
starts thinking for herself, she (and by extension her husband) will become
much more difficult for the gedolim to control.

I have been following this thread with much anguish. I _live_ here so
these decisions will affect me and my children _personally_, not just
as a topic to rant on about.

I won't say if I agree with this decision because there are a lot of
nuances involved. But I will definitely say that Rav Elyashiv is
_not_ looking to "control" people. His concern is that Klal Yisrael
remain Torah-true Jews.

Right. But to accomplish that, control is necessary - at the very
least, control over information people receive. Otherwise, he would
have relied on persuasion only, like most of us.

But IMNSHO, Cindy was using the word "control" with a very negative
meaning.

What positive meaning can it have, Moshe?

It's easy to say they want to "control" because unfortunately, that's
what we're used to seeing in so-called "leaders". Gedolei Yisrael
operate on a completely different mind-set. They feel they have been
given the *responsibility* for Klal Yisrael's continuation as a "Holy
Nation". If you think about it, it's an _awesome_ responsibility. So,
espescially in this generation of Internet and Global villiage, they
are even more concerned with "outside influences".

But I think you need to rethink the aspersions you're casting.

Oh, most of us will probably acknowledge R' Eliyashiv's et al best
intentions. Certain roads have reportedly been paved such intentions.
We all control (or try to) the education of our children. Most of us
draw the line for such control at adults, because we value
intellectual freedom more than we fear the risk that some will go
astray. Haredi rabbis don't.

As I responded to Karen Elizabeth, that "control" (or "fear" as she
called it) seems to me to be Biblically _mandated_. See my post
quoting Num. 15:39.

I read it. If we are to understand the verses that way, it still works
out to an individual obligation, not to a leader's obligation to
control access to information. IMHO.

Yisroel "Godwrestler Warriorson" Markov - Boston, MA Member
www.reason.com -- for unbiased analysis of the world DNRC
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