Re: Shabbos candles (Was Re: What's wrong with Conservative Judaism)

no-spam@xxxxxxxxx (Scoop) writes:

Quoth Don Levey:
: kahn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (James Kahn) writes:

: > >Joel Shurkin wrote:
: >
: > > That's why non-Orthodox Jews roll their eyes on these finesses. The
: > > honest thing to do, which Conservatives do, is simply avoid the fiction
: > > and the technology and turn the damn lights on. How do you expect
: > > respect for the laws when you create fictions to avoid following them
: > > and then criticize us for being at least honest about it?
: >
: > Alternatively, one might argue that the "honest" thing for non-Orthodox
: > Jews to do, which in fact many non-O do all around the world (especially
: > in Europe and Israel) is rather than denigrate the religious practices
: > of the O as "dishonest", just acknowledge that they themselves are unwilling
: > to adhere to those practices. Period. It's much easier to "roll your
: > eyes" at what others do than to turn a critical eye on oneself.
: >
: This hinges on the question of what a person considers valid. O Jews, for
: example, tend not to consider non-O expressions of Judaism valid. Many
: (though not all) also denigrate those practices, with that very
: justification. If non-O Jews do not consider the O practices valid, why
: should they not be granted the same liberty?

Are you arguing for the "liberty" to be as rude and childish as the other
guy? That can't be right.

Not quite. I'm saying something more like "if you're going to throw
bricks at us, don't complain if one is occasionally lobbed back at you."
But in the end I guess you're right: it all amounts to the same thing.

: If non-O Jews do* consider the O practices valid, then failing to adhere
: *to them* would be an admission of failing, and completely obviate the
: existence of non-O groups.

I think I see your point, but I think I disagree. I don't think any of us
can claim not to fail in our observance, even if said observance is limited
to the ethical mitzvot. While I tend to regard all human institutions as
games (in the von Neumann/Morgenstern/Nash sense), I like the idea of having
a communally derived and consensual standard by which to judge my actions
and their effects; if there's always room for improvement, it doesn't matter
to me whether the room is bigger or smaller. It's always going to be bigger
than what I'm doing now.

We're talking about two different things here. It's like:
* I believe that the speed limit applies to me, but sometimes I
end up speeding despite my attempts to stay within the limit.

* I believe that the speed limit applies to me, but I purposely speed.

These are in direct contrast to:
* I don't believe that the speed limits apply to me, and therefore
I am free to drive at this speed.

I'm not talking about the first, I'm talking about the second in
contrast to the third. Consider that one of the major principles
of Reform (and to an extent Conservative, I think) is that the laws
as written are not necessarily binding on all Jews (note that this
does leave room for a binding law of SOME form, as I understand that
C does in some areas). A Reform Jew wouldn't say that halacha is
in total binding upon all Jews, or likely even him in particular, for
the same reason that an Orthodox Jew would not be mechallel Shabbat -
it's part of the definition. So saying "I accept that halacha is
binding upon me but I refuse to abide by it" would make that person...
somthing else. I don't know what. For Reform *as a group* to make
that statement would be the disappearance of Reform as a distinct
group of Judaism with its own separate principles (yes, we do have
principles...).


--
Don Levey If knowledge is power,
Framingham, MA and power corrupts, then...
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