Re: SKEPTIC article on O Jews and science


Matt Silberstein wrote:
On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 17:26:57 +0000 (UTC), in
soc.culture.jewish.moderated , "q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx"
<q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx> in
<1153149804.373744.276560@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Damien Sullivan wrote:
"q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx" <q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Gen 2:5-6
All the wild shrubs did not yet exist on the earth, and all the wild
plants had not yet sprouted. This was because God had not brought rain
on the earth, and there was no man to work the ground.

It could mean that the rain alone made them grow. Man working the soil
just ensured you got better variety.

Man usually gets less variety, but better options for Man. :)

So man didn't need to be there > 5700 years ago working the soil for
the dinausaurs. (assuming they existed)

*cough*

By the way, the oldest paintings and flutes (7-hole) known are 32-36,000
years old.

how intelligent are these paintings ?
they may not have played the flute that much better than a monkey.

You've never seen cave paintings? Go to Google Images.


good idea. Quite impressive. But an ability to draw does not make man.

With linguistic evidence, it'd give us more ability judge their
intelligence, their morality.

Uh, monkeys don't make flutes. Or play them.


A monkey can be trained to do simple sign language. No doubt you can
train a monkey to play a flute. And probably to make a simple one. But
they lack the intelligence to play it well.

First off, *apes*, chimps and gorillas in particular, can *learn* sign
language. Apes are not monkeys. Second there is a big difference
between training an individual and a group that develops something as
sophisticated as the paintings and sculpture and such we have.
*Writing* may not be more than 6k or so years old, but plenty of
sophisticated stuff (needles, complex tools, sculpture, etc.) is much
older. We should also expect that language pre-dates writing by a
considerable time.

evidence of a creature that was very good at building things, they most
probably would have had a language far more sophisticated than an ape

But to see if they were Man like or not in character, one would have to
study what they said.

Though even then, perhaps it's still not possible to tell. Because for
example, if you look at the behaviour of some african tribes. Drinking
blood in ceremonies, not building anything special, dancing around
with western guns, According to wikipedia, not even writing until the
west introduced it to them aroudn the 1800s. It'd be wrong to conclude
that they are not human. Since we know that taken out of that
environment, some of them do quite well. And outside of that barbaric
environment, their morality is human, some are poets, lawyers. They're
human.
Perhaps given the ability to write, it becomes obvious that they are
human. So it is possible to tell - if they can write! Maybe a few
smart ones in the barbaric society 'come out' of it.



If the closest thing you've seen to a human, is a monkey, then it's
very easy for you to say that if it's too clever for a monkey, then it
must've been done by a human.

If you don't know the difference between an ape and monkey you
probably should not talk about these issues.


The logic still applies. If you want, change the word monkey to ape.Or
the animal you think is closest to a human.

You see evidence of cities and tools made > 6000 years ago. You think
an ape couldn't have done it, so you think it must've been done by a
human.
I think it must have been done by something smarter than an ape.
That is really all the evidence tells us.

This doesn't contradict the torah which woudl say that man is < 6000
years old. Anything prior to Adam is not consdiered man. Acordingt o
shroeder, the talmud speaks of a man like creature prior to adam.

But there's a large gap between a monkey and a human. And i'd put pre
adamic man (if he existed) between the two.
A fully developed human also has reasoned out morals, and seeks to
better themselves. A child less so, and certainly not a monkey. I don't
see evidence to show that pre adamic man was like Adamic man in that
respect.

Read some material about chimps, they sure seem to have a sense of
morality. Not as developed as humans, but it is there. Read _Next of
Kin_, the story of the first chimps to use sign language, for an
insight into our closest cousins.
[snip]


the point is it's not as developed as human .

Even if pre Adamic man had the morality of children, (acting more on
unbringing than their own reason - as an animal does) it wouldn't be
like Adamic man.

but there is no evidence of sign language even of the standard that one
can train a monkey anyway. Though I wouldn't expect there to be
either.

Actually there is evidence that chimps, at least, use sign language of
a sort in the wild.


yes, and animals without hands do sign language with other things, like
their eyes. But this is not at the level of a human.


But the point is that this pre adamic man, hasn't left us evidence to
refute the idea that that pre Adam, those that secular world call 'man'
would not be considered man by the torah, lacking the morality,
intelligence,reasoning.

You are trying very hard to hold to your view, even to the extent of
ignoring the evidence from the world. I find that sad.


the scientific evidence is that creatures smarter than apes built
cities and tools and drew cave paintings. I'm sure they had a
language better than apes too.
That is not evidence that they were human.
If they had written anything, (I think it'd have to be quite a bit)
then we could have a look and decide

.

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