Re: DH Idiocy 1


"Micha Berger" <micha@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e6cb6t$n1p$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Fri, 9 Jun 2006 11:04:51 +0000 (UTC), Dan Kimmel
<daniel.kimmel@xxxxxxx> wrote:
: The fact that Jacko and Lisa both rushed to insist on physical
: impossibilities (what happened to Occam's Razor, Lisa?) such as the
*earth*
: standing still or slowing down suggests that the literalists aren't
limited
: to the evangelicals...

IOW, you simply deny the existence of the miraculous. On what grounds do
you assert that G-d can't violate nature if He chooses not to.

BTW, more wild

: I always liked the midrash about the few miraculous things that were
created
: just before the first Shabbat, as if to note that such things were
: extraordinary exceptions.

Not "midrash", a mishnah, Avot 5:8 (translation and insertions from
<http://www.torah.org/learning/pirkei-avos/chapter5-8.html>, reformatted
into a list):
Ten things were created on the Sabbath eve at twilight. They are:
1- the mouth of the earth [which swallowed Korach and his
co-conspirators] (Numbers 16:32),
2- the mouth of the well [which accompanied Israel in the desert],
3- the mouth of the donkey [which rebuked Balaam] (ibid., 22:28),
4- the rainbow,
5- the Manna,
6- the staff [of Moses],
7- the shamir worm,
8- the script [of the Torah],
9- the inscription [on the Tablets of the Ten Commandments], and
10- the Tablets.
Some say: also
11- destructive spirits,
12- the burial place of Moses,
13- and the ram of our father Abraham [which he slaughtered in place
of Isaac] (Genesis 22:13).
And some say, also
14- tongs -- which are made with tongs.

Yes, of course. Thanks for the correction. I remembered the lesson, even
if I misplaced the source. :)



First, items #4, #8, #13 and #14 aren't miraculous. (There are also some
maybes, like #12, some believe that Moses's burial place is miraculously
hidden.) #6 doesn't require a miracle to exist, but it was used in
triggering miracles. If this were a list of miracles, every time a sofeir
puts quill or reed to parchment, or maybe even every time anyone writes,
violated nature???

Second, the way the list is phrased as being about objects, it couldn't be
a canonical list of miraculous events. A miracle like the sun's location
in the sky not changing has no place on the list, there are no special
objects involved. Similarly, where's the crossing of the Red Sea?

The Maharal points to the words "the sun stood still in Giv'on" to prove
that the miracle only happened to people at the battle site. For everyone
else, the day was its usual length. That not only defies science, it
defies the assertion that reality must be consistent across different
observers. Ie that there must be a formula relating one observer's
observations to another's.

But his point is that miracles do not defy nature. Rather, people
can be taken out of the context of nature and placed into a context
where higher laws hold. At least, that's how Rav Dessler explains
the Maharal's position. The Maharal simply says that miracles always
occur, one simply needs to rise above the level of nature to experience
them. Rav Dessler speaks of being in a world ruled by laws like justice,
kindness, etc... rather than gravity, electromagnetism, etc... The belief
is therefore far more subtle than simply that G-d need limit events so
that they conform to nature.

No, I don't believe in miracles that violate the law of nature. Were I to
accept that -- that God *would* violate His own natural laws to create an
ostentatious "miracle" -- I would have to ask why He wasted His efforts on
something mundane like this instead of preventing the Shoah. There, of
course, the argument is that God doesn't interfere to preserve free will.
Why should free will be inviolable but celestial mechanics be treated like a
children's game where the rules change if the biggest kid thinks they ought
to?



.

Relevant Pages

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  • Re: DH Idiocy 1
    ... impossibilities such as the *earth* ... 14- tongs -- which are made with tongs. ... If this were a list of miracles, ... But his point is that miracles do not defy nature. ...
    (soc.culture.jewish.moderated)
  • Re: OT Freedom of and FROM religion
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