Re: Eating matza the entire week of Pesach


q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
moshes@xxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
"q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx" <q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
backon@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
"q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx" <q_q_anonymous@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

What you say, is what i've heard to , but howcome
http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp

note-slightly better link to same thing

http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=4&CHAPTER=28

deut 16:3 (found via google)
16:3 Do not eat any leaven with it. As part of [the celebration] you
shall eat matzah for seven days.

numbers 28:17 (numbers 28 is famous special maftir)
28:17 Then, on the 15th day, a festival shall begin, when matzahs shall
be eaten for seven days

Sigh ....

We don't learn halacha from Bible; we learn it from the Oral Law
and halachic decisors.

I am not aware that the oral law can contradict and overrule the
written. I've never heard of that before.

Isn't the written a summary, contains some laws. The Oral Law is an
explanation, contains all laws?

What are those biblical verses teaching us then?

The rest of those pesach verses seem to apply (though some only when
the temple exists)

As usual Josh was terse. There is another verse Deut. 16:8 which
says explicitly "Six days eat matzohs and the seventh day is an
Atzeret for G-d...".

So we have a contradiction, the verses you quoted say eat matzoh for
seven days. This verse says to eat for six days. The Oral Law
resolves the contradiction and is the basis for _all_ our halachot!
Just as Josh said.


that is an interesting one, though commentary resolves it one way. The
first day was just described, thus it meant 6 additional days. Making 7
days eating matzot in total, like the other verses.
http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=16#C4073

the torah does seem to describe things relatively, e.g. shmini atzeret
which is not succot, is the 8th day.

But my question remains, what do the verses that say eat matzot for 7
days teach us?

According to the artscroll 16:8, it hinting at don't eat bread for 7
days. Very well, though that doesn't expain why the pshat says what is
says.


********YAY, here is an answer **********

Thanks for finding that verse, the ans is based aroudn that
Here is an answer that make sense.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/holidays/Passover/TO_Pesach_Seder/Matzah_368/matzahfirstnight/matzahfirstnighttexts.htm

Clearly the sages were aware of a rule to find the meaning of verses in
Torah.
This is not *interpretation*, this is Meaning/intention pure and
simple.

relevant extract from link follows


Mekhilta, Pischa 8 (Lauterbach)
One verse says "Seven days you shall eat matzah" and one verse says
"Six day you shall eat matzah." How can both of these verses be
maintained? The seventh day was included (in the first verse) but then
excluded (from the second verse). That which is excluded from a more
inclusive statement is meant to teach us about the whole statement. So,
just as on the seventh day it is optional (r'shut), so on all of the
other days, it is optional. Does this mean that it is optional on the
first night also? The verse "In the first month, on the fourteenth day
in the evening, you shall eat matzah" (Exodus 12:18) fixes it as an
obligation (hovah) to eat matzah on the first night.
-

Reminds of me R Yishmael's 13 rules , though I don't think that rule in
his list.

This verse was mentioned

"In the first month, on the fourteenth day
in the evening, you shall eat matzah" (Exodus 12:18)

Interesting that it says 14th day in the evening. It means 15th night.
interestingly, for an explanation of why that one is, it's possible to
go purely by the text. Figuring it to mean 15th night. THere are other
places where the Torah uses this expression.
This Karaite webpage discusses it. For example, Yom Kippur is also
described as the 9th day in the evening. It means what we call, the
10th night. http://www.karaite-korner.org/passover.shtml
Note, for more complex explanations
http://www.torah.org/advanced/haaros/5757/behar97.html
In an old email to the author a while ago, he recommended RAMBAN on Bo,
and Emes L'yaakov by Rav Yaakov Kaminetzky. For more.


Back to the main thing. My question about the Pshat. It seems I still
don't know the pshat. But, I don't mind, since I have a Drash.

I was mistaken in thinkign that rabbi yishmael's rules or other rules,
are still under the category of pshat. It seems they are under the
category of Drash. I wasn't aware that Drash follow strict rules.
Perhaps I got confused with the term Drasha which is a sermon. Drash
is - it seems - Not *I-N-T-E-R-P-R-E-T-A-T-I-O-N*(as has been
mentioned in the group at one time) but applying rules.

Note, interestingly, here are some mroe rules to go with Rabbi
Yishmael's got through google, from the LOOKJED archives
http://listserv.biu.ac.il/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0111&L=lookjed&T=0&P=246
"The Malbim in his commentary Ayelet HaShachar (on Vayikra) compiles
613 rules of drash which he claims were used by CHaZaL in addition to
the original thirteen and were subsequently lost. R. Yitzchak HaLevy in
his work Dorot HaRishonot argues against this "

Here are some explanations off the web. They corroborate


http://tinyurl.com/qfa5z
or
(make sure in the URL below that torah is in small letters, otherwise
you get a menu)
http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/5759/vayeshev59.htm
"we are also told that the Torah can be approached in four basic ways:
1. Pshat (simple, direct meaning)

2. Remez (hints at underlying truths)

3. Drash (of two types)

Midrash Halacha - Scriptural sources for Jewish Laws
Midrash Aggada - blend of history, legend and poetry
4. Sod (Kabbalistic, mystical approach)

"
Also.
http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-hebrew/2001-May/010905.html

The Torah in Jewish perspective, has 70 "faces", that is can be learnt
in 70
perspectives. In each of these perspectives there are 4 (FOUR) levels :
- Pshat = Litteral meaning
- Remez = allusive, analogy, allegory
- Drash = (means 'to seek') rational, deductive.
- Sod = secret, is the highest level

Each of the levels Remez, Drash and Sod have an epistemologic approach,
that
is : written methodology of reasoning procedures, specific to that
level
(there are for instance 13 general rules -rabbi yishmael - for
reasonning
methodology of Drash level). Notice that the highest level, Sod, has
value
70 (again!, like the 70 faces of the Torah). By the way, notice that
the
initials of the four methods give the word PaRDeSS (vowels are not
written
in hebrew) which means a perfectly beautiful garden (normal garden =
'gan')
which is certainly the origin of the word Paradise (somehow a place
where
people learn the Torah ...)
Wine in hebrew is YaYiN, value 70 too, and is the only fruit that, if
the
fruit is of quality, improves with time, whereas if the fruit is bad,
the
wine gets worse with time. Wine represents often the position of human
vs
time in Judaism. It's the reason why Jewish celebrations start by the
wine
(a tradition that the christians have taken, and sadly attached to a
logic
of human sacrifice ...)
Clearly the vineyard is the Torah.



By the way. I think Remez is also, certainly not *interpetation* but,
it's a tradition that a verse hints at a certain thing e.g.(prob not
only) law.

.

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