Re: On departing SCJM


"Abe Kohen" <abekohen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:e0qkc5$aul$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Joel Shurkin" <shurkin@xxxxxxx> wrote

[...]
I left for three reasons, and one was the Shoah discussion.
[...]
The second reason was some of the company I had to keep.
I was told repeated that while I might be Jewish, I did not
have the privileges of being Jewish
[...]
Which brings me to the third reason, and one for which I
am partly responsible

[...]
When a few posters go off the deep end, I expected others who
nominally shared their world view to step up and point out
that they were expressing extreme positions. We got silence
usually.

Dear Joel,

I am very sorry to see you go and hope that you change your mind. While we
had our differences of opinion, I always felt that you were a worthy
adversary. We are all shaped by certain events in life. For me, one event
was the 1956 Hungarian Revolution which left me with a very sour taste for
anything Communist, Socialist or even left wing. The ideas espoused are
abhorrent to me, but the people who espouse them are not. I respect your
right to your opinion, although it evokes in me a visceral reaction as
strong as the revulsion you felt about the Shoah discussion.

Regarding the Shoa discussion, as you know I was raised UO. My rabbis were
almost all Holocaust survivors who became melamdim after the war to
provide
their families with a steady, albeit meager, parnasa. Not one, and I
repeat,
not a single one, ever espoused the nonsense posted here on scjm by some O
posters. Yes, we have our share of extremists on scjm, and we have our
share
of wannabees.



Suppose I take a 20 year old student who never studied algebra, geometry,
and trigonometry, and I teach her Calculus. Sure she'll be able to say
L'Hospital, Cauchy, Reimann, and even mechanically integrate some
functions,
but she won't have the underlying understanding of what algebraic or
geometric interpretation there might be. If anything, nuance will
certainly
be missing. [Professor Rubin will probably disagree.]

So it is with some newcomers to O-land. Yes they learn hard to overcome
their missing knowledge and cultural upbringing, but never having been
exposed to the finer nuances of O observation often become mechanical and
often extremist.


I say this with no malice intended, nor to dissuade anyone from being O.
-----------
If you are referring to me, I am neither an extremist nor a wannabe. In
fact, most people find me rather liberal in many ways. I am on a completely
different wavelength than the majority of the UOs in my community. I
certainly have virtually nothing in common with any of the other women and
have zero desire to emulate any of them. But what I posted here regarding
collective judgment, emphasis on olam habah, etc seems to me to be the very
essence of what defines O. I have found this to be the general consensus in
my community, which is far to the left of places like Lakewood by anybody's
standards. I do not believe that I am part of a maverick community in this
regard, as the previous rabbi frequently cited similar opinions of other
gedolei hador, and I have seen similar views expressed in the talmud and
other books.

The view that we are punished for wrongdoing and rewarded for mitzvos and
judged collectively and that sometimes tzaddikim die because of the sins of
others is a traditional view in Judaism. If your rabbis didn't hold by it,
they didn't, and I'm sure there are many other rabbis who don't hold by it
either, but nevertheless, it is a view held by many traditional Jews, not
just a handful of *extremists and wannabes* not just *newcomers to O-land*
and not just people who learn hard to *overcome their missing knowledge and
cultural upbringing, but never having been exposed to the finer nuances of O
observation.* I suppose it's always easier to simply hit below the belt than
to address the topic itself. And the irony of the whole thing is that as far
as I can tell, I never expressed my personal opinion on the subject at all.
Best regards,
---Cindy S.




Like you Joel, I harbor a respect for those who make a life choice to be
O,
while insisting on my my own right to live my life as my heart and soul
dictate. No one here is in a position to validate or invalidate your
Jewishness. You and I were both at Mount Sinai where God spoke to us in
many
voices, (kolot), and while we all said "naaseh v'nishma," we all heard a
different kol (voice).

With respect to the third point, I strongly disagree with your assessment.
There was no silence on my part. The only time I am silent is if I am too
busy, disinterested in a topic, or silenced by the moderators. I had 17
posts rejected in March alone. Many were responses to Andy or about Andy.
Some were responses to an ad-hominem thread about me, which I was not
allowed to respond to. How did that thread get approved??? I am grateful
to
those who stood up for me in that thread.

So while I do hope you come back, expect strong opinions from me, and
expect
vehement disagreement on moderation policy.

[e-mailed and posted on 4-2-06]

Best regards,

Abe


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