Re: Metzitzah b'peh


In article <hJczf.43$Cr.11@xxxxxxxx>, "J J Levin" <jjlevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> "cindys" <cstein1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> news:cVbzf.81932$XJ5.40778@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>
>> "J J Levin" <jjlevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> news:Hbbzf.745$EU3.69@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> "cindys" <cstein1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> news:R_azf.101011$ME5.86597@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >
>>> > "J J Levin" <jjlevin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>>> > news:bW9zf.59$EU3.25@xxxxxxxxxxx
>>> >> > 2. And if it were, I don't think Joel's advice: "That there are
>> rabbis
>>> >> > that
>>> >> > still hold by it is another reason why some rabbis
>>> >> > ought to be ignored" was directed at The City of New York.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Joel and I agree...
>>> >
>>> > ....that religious Jews should ignore their rabbis and follow Joel's
>>> > advice
>>> > instead.
>>> >
>>> >> I view metzitzah as something which should be banned.
>>> >> There are clear approved alternatives
>>> >
>>> > Approved by whom?
>>> >
>>> >>, whuich apparently most Os have
>>> >> adopted.
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> I see. So the majority of Os are not good enough for you. You'll go with
>> the
>>> extreme minority.
>>
>> Halacha is not based on a popularity contest, and Judaism does not operate
>> by majority rule.
>
> Sure it does. The rabbis fought against Simchat Torah (which was supposed to
> be a very solemn holiday, and turned into a drinking fest in some quarters





Simchat Torah is first mentioned in the book "HaChilukim she'bein anshei
Mizrach u'bnei eretz Yisrael"[the differences (in customs) between those
in Babylonia and those in Israel] which came out around 650 CE. Basically,
the custom among those in Babylonia was to finish the readings of the Torah
in an annual cycle whereas that of those in Israel was a triennial (3 year)
[actually, 3.5 year] cycle. See gemara in Megilla 29b and Massechet Sofrim
16:10.

The custom of completing the reading of the Torah on Simchat Torah is
mentioned in a braita in Megilla 31a "l'machar korin V'Zoht haBracha".

By the end of the geonic era, the day of Simchat Torah had a number of names:
"Yom haSefer", "Yom haSiyum" and also "Simchat Torah" (the last mentioned in
RIT'Z Giat p. 118; Siddur RASHI p. 228, Machzor Vitri p. 256). The Sefer
haManhig (early 12th C) in Hilchot Chag 59 mentions the custom as does the
SHU"T haRashba hameyuchasot l"Ramban 260.

The custom of then starting the reading with Sefer B're*** is mentioned
by the Avudarham in Tfilot Sukkot and in the Sefer haManhig p. 55.




> are you Chabadniks listerning? ) and against Purim (which has no historical
> basis and was adapted from a pagan holiday) and against Kol Nidre (because


ROTFL :-) Purim? Where did you get this utterly absurd idea from ?
The Book of Esther describes an historical event, an event which
is celebrated by eating, drinking and reading the Megilla.



> it gives the goyim a reason to say "see, on their holiest day the Jews vow
> not to keep any future promises") but popular demand made those holidays and
> Kol Nidre into what they are.



It's only mentioned in the talmud.




>
> You really think Hillel made the pruzbul because he liked it? He made it
> because no one would observe shmitat chovot and no one would lend the poor
> any money as the year of shmitta approached. That's a popular vote. Or the
> eruv -- a fiction if I ever saw one, extending your home for 16 square

The Eruv only allows carrying on shabbat in a RABINICALLY forbidden
area; never in a Toraitically prohibited area.


*The* problem is the definition of a public domain
(reshut ha'rabim, m'doraita).The following decisors ruled that a
public domain must be 16 amot wide (about 24 feet) and 600,000
traverse it daily: Rashi in Eruvin 6a; ROSH Eruvin Perek Alef Siman
8; Tosfot Shabbat 64b; RAAVYA Siman 216; R. Sar Shalom Gaon in Tshuvot
haGeonim Chemda Genuza Siman 70; TUR OC 303 and 325 and 345; Rema;
TAZ OC 345 s"k 6; magen Avraham OC 345 s"k 7; GRA in OC 345 s"k 11;
Chayei Adam Klal 49 Din 13.

The problem ? The Rambam didn't require 600,000 people traversing the
area but any street 16 amot wide is reshut harabbim d'oraita. Ditto
for the RIF, the Ramban Shabbat 57a; Ramban on Eruvin 59a; the RAN
Shabbat 57a; Tshuvot haRashba Chelek Alef Siman 724; the Meiri; and
the RIVASH Siman 7. And that's the consensus in the Bet Yosef TUR
Orach Chaim 345 as well.

That's why Sfardim don't hold by the eruv.







> blocks so you carry your house keys and your baby. It was needed by the
> population, and it was made. Surely you have heard of (I am paraphrasing)
> Ein matkinim takana she'ein hatzibur omed ba" -- one cannot make a rule
> which the public will not be able to observe. That's a popular vote, and
> the rabbis of old were smart enough to realize that some things needed to be
> changed.
>
> Would that today's rabbis were as smart.
>
>







>
>
>
> And I can't help but be left to wonder the same thing I'm
>> always left to wonder in these exchanges, which is: Why are you turning
>> this
>> into a subthread about *me* and what's good enough *for me* and that *I'm*
>> going to go with the "extreme minority"? I'm going to go with the extreme
>> minority on what? It seems to me the only thought I've expressed at all is
>> that it's rather presumptuous for Joel to be advising other Jews to ignore
>> the halachic rulings of their rabbis.
>>
>>>
>>> Certainly. Some rabbis OUGHT to be ignored.
>>
>> So you say on this particular subject because you disagree. But on
>> subjects
>> where you agree with the rabbi, then the rabbi's advice should be
>> followed?
>> Maybe the haredi rabbis should consult with you before rendering halachic
>> rulings and then nobody would need to ignore them.
>>
>>
>>>Or I suppose you support
>>
>> Again, this is about *me* and what *I* support...
>>
>>>the
>>> rabbi who said that 22 children in Petah Tikvah were killed in a bus
>>> accident because the mezuzot on their doorposts were not kosher and
>> because
>>> Petah Tikva allowed movies on Friday evening.. .
>>
>> I must have missed the halachic ruling here.
>>
>>> this DID happen in Israel.
>>> Rabbi Peretz (then Minister of Interior) said that. I also believe that
>>> Ovadiah Yosef ought to be ignored more than he should be listened to.
>>
>> Because you don't like what he says. But other people like him just fine.
>>
>>>But
>>> what do I know, every rabbi has his idiot followers who will do anythoing
>> he
>>> says. You should study the term "Chassid-Shoteh".
>>>
>> Yes, we know. A "chassid shoteh" is any member of a "hardi cult" who
>> doesn't
>> share your worldview.
>> Best regards,
>> ---Cindy S.
>
>
> No, a chassid shoteh is a chassid who sees a woman drowning but won't go
> into the water to save her lest he see an exposed part of her body.
> It's mindless following
>
> Jay
>


Josh


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