Re: How ancient the etrog is?
- From: hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Herman Rubin)
- Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 15:33:54 +0000 (UTC)
In article <1135628121.090771.167380@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
<yacovachi@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>Herman Rubin wrote:
>> Classical Hebrew does not have a present tense; it is a
>> present participle. This can be told by the fact that it
>> has number and gender, but not person, which verbs have.
>You call it participle I call it a tense (following the Spanish
>grammarians) who cares? The territory is what it is. We are fighting
>about a map that each of use sees as more convenient. Basically a
>waste of time.
>I would add that you are echoing modern "scholars" and I am using my
>own traditions map and the accumulated knowledge behind it. My folks
>are all fluent in BH and recite the bibilcal texts daily. Participles
>do not generally get conjugated. These participles vary with
>**binyan**.
Binyanim are not tenses; there is no good English term for
them, but I would call them "structures", which I believe I
have seen in grammars. They are more general than moods,
which are there in binyanim, and often they can even change
the meaning of the verb.
The closest I have seen in any Indo-European language is
the "perfect" and "imperfect" in Russian; these are not
like the perfect and imperfect tenses in other languages.
>Now, if you have to redefine "participle" so goddman much that it looks
>like a verb, conuugates liek a verb and varies with binyan as only a
>verb does, tell me sir, why would I need to call it a participle?
It varies according to number and gender exactly like a
noun or adjective does. This is not the case for verbs
in Hebrew; they vary by person as well, except that they
do not vary by gender in the first person, and I believe
also in third person plural perfect, and their variation
by number and gender is not like that of verb forms, but
exactly like that of nouns and adjectives.
>Have you seriously considered these issues? When? What is your
>answer?
>> >God is "shomer Yisrael" and "bohen kelayoth valebh." Is each a verb?
>> >yes. But each phrase is used as an appellation and thus is rather
>> >noun-like.
>> Not having my dictionary with me, I do not know what "bohen"
>> means. But "shomer" is "one who watches", a noun or adjective
>> form, not a verb form, although it is derived from the root
>> sh m r. In other languages, this construction also occurs.
>I say they are both verb forms. Please stop "correcting" others
>without first trying to understand their point of view. Mine is a long
>standing school of thought, and yours is repeating someone else's
>Western (imperialistic) take on the Orient.
>You know my feelings about your resort to authoritas. I do not think
>your view (if you even considered yourself) is valid.
>I am open to GENUINE analysis by you to show me why your view is a
>better map of the linguistic facts. Can you supply that as opposed to
>a sound bite?
>Jacko
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.
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